<p>Wow. This is getting brutal. I know stereotyping is an important topic that needs to be discussed, but jeez. If your trying to turn someone to your point of view, telling them that "we don't need you at the service academies" or that they are "worthless" is probably not the best approach.</p>
<p>Maybe we do need them at service academies. Maybe they need to be opened up to the environment for their own improvement and the improvement of the military. Maybe they need to meet and interact with people who have tattoos and are extremely respectable and overall good role models. Maybe everyone isn't perfect. Personal preference/opinions drive the decisions of the world. This includes decisions made for the good of a country. Maybe our country's decisions are flawed, and maybe we all need to realize that we should simply follow the rules set before us, and everything else is fair game.</p>
<p>tattoos make statements.</p>
<p>Just because people shouldn't be stereotyped doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. If you have a visible tattoo, I guarantee that someone at some point in your military carreer will think less of you for it. The fact that that is unfair is irrelevant. It still happens. Therefore, think hard about it before you do something like getting a tattoo.</p>
<p>I am in my 40s not in the military... while tattoos are more acceptable -- I suppose-- than they used to be; many of the people that are making decisions about you are going to be my age. All things considered, I have an aversion to tattoos and would be disinclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. As to visibility; well if I am a more experienced officer at the gym--you know naked in the locker room... I would question why you risk offending an individual (somewhere, sometime) by getting a tattoo and I would possibly--just for a moment question your judgement</p>
<p>Reminds me of the hair issue for men when I was young --the old "the man can make me get a haircut' ... I find making a moral stand for tattoos childish -- but that is just me</p>
<p>FYI - in case you find yourself in an Muslim land someday</p>
<p>Tattoos</p>
<p>ALTHOUGH tattoos can be seen in many Arab countries, tattooing is not a particularly Arab tradition and strict Muslims disapprove of it </p>
<p>Tattooing is nevertheless common among the Berbers of north Africa, where small designs with symbolic meaning are used (mainly by women). Egyptian Christians often have a cross tattooed on their hand or wrist. These designs are very simple - often crudely done - and we are not aware of any Arab equivalent to the elaborate tattoos used, for example, by the Maoris and Pacific islanders.</p>
<p>i'd say it also depends on the tattoo. ie combat jump wings vs barbed wire</p>
<h2>"If you want to cry about how Mr.Al-Tikriti is stereotyping you because of your Roy Orbison tattoo on your butt, you're gonna be SOL. He won't care that your feelings are hurt."</h2>
<p>I think he might be more offended by seeing your butt than the tattoo! LOL</p>
<p>If you go back to the original post that started this thread, you will see the basic question is: "I have heard that the Army, in some way, looks down upon tattoos. Is this true?" So, from all the posts I have read, the answer depends on which person in the Army you ask. Some will look down on you, some will not. I think it all goes back to the fact that tattoos used to be acquired by people that were considered on the fringe of society. Now more mainstream people have tattoos but most of society has not accepted them as mainstream.</p>
<p>WAMom68 - Here is the official policy from the Army. Seems like a lot of words to define what is acceptable to the Army. This is contrary to your point that "it depends on who you ask." In my opinion, the official language below would indicate that the preference would be no tattoos. But since they are becoming mainstream as you put it, they are being realistic about what may be found in the population that they are recruiting from, both for the armed forces in general and for the academies. The first is from the Standards of Medical Fitness, which are the guidelines that DODMERB follows for West Point and ARMY ROTC candidates. The second is from the referenced regulation AR670-1 (Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia). (See especially paragraph AR670 Section e.(6.)(e.) [Last sentence.])</p>
<p>In my opinion tattoos are like green hair and gothic dress and makeup. You are free to do as you please but don't expect most people to look favorably on you if you veer too far from the norm. I agree that more and more people are getting tattoos, but I do not think that this is the norm. If you are convinced that it is, that is your choice. But you will not be able to change my mind.</p>
<p>Competing for an appointment to an Academy is like interviewing for a job. Do not expect that the "employer" will judge you from your viewpoint. If you think that something about your appearance or demeanor is inappropriate, it probably is.</p>
<hr>
<p>u. Tattoos (709.9) that will significantly limit effective performance of military service or that are otherwise
prohibited under AR 6701.</p>
<hr>
<p>e. Tattoo policy
(1) Tattoos or brands anywhere on the head, face, and neck above the class A uniform collar are prohibited.
(2) Tattoos or brands that are extremist, indecent, sexist, or racist are prohibited, regardless of location on the body,
as they are prejudicial to good order and discipline within units.
(a) Extremist tattoos or brands are those affiliated with, depicting, or symbolizing extremist philosophies, organizations,
or activities. Extremist philosophies, organizations, and activities are those which advocate racial, gender or
ethnic hatred or intolerance; advocate, create, or engage in illegal discrimination based on race, color, gender, ethnicity,
religion, or national origin; or advocate violence or other unlawful means of depriving individual rights under the U.S.
Constitution, Federal, or State law (see para 412, AR 60020).
(b) Indecent tattoos or brands are those that are grossly offensive to modesty, decency, or propriety; shock the moral
sense because of their vulgar, filthy, or disgusting nature or tendency to incite lu****l thought; or tend reasonably to
corrupt morals or incite libidinous thoughts.
(c) Sexist tattoos or brands are those that advocate a philosophy that degrades or demeans a person based on gender,
but that may not meet the same definition of indecent.
(d) Racist tattoos or brands are those that advocate a philosophy that degrades or demeans a person based on race,
ethnicity, or national origin.
(3) Counseling requirements.
AR 6701 3 February 2005 5
(a) Commanders will ensure soldiers understand the tattoo policy.
(b) For soldiers who are not in compliance, commanders may not order the removal of a tattoo or brand. However,
the commander must counsel soldiers, and afford them the opportunity to seek medical advice about removal or
alteration of the tattoo or brand.
(4) If soldiers are not in compliance with the policy, and refuse to remove or alter the tattoos or brands, commanders
will:
(a) Ensure the soldier understands the policy.
(b) Ensure the soldier has been afforded the opportunity to seek medical advice about removal or alteration.
(c) Counsel the soldier in writing. The counseling form will state that the soldiers refusal to remove extremist,
indecent, sexist, or racist tattoos or brands anywhere on the body, or refusal to remove any type of tattoo or brand
visible in the class A uniform (worn with slacks/trousers), will result in discharge.
(5) Existing tattoos or brands on the hands that are not extremist, indecent, sexist, or racist, but are visible in the
class A uniform (worn with slacks/trousers), are authorized.
(6) Finality of determination.
(a) Recruiting battalion commanders or recruiting battalion executive officers (05 or above) will make initial entry
determinations that tattoos or brands comply with this policy for Active Army and Army Reserve soldiers. This
authority will not be delegated further.
(b) Unit commanders or unit executive officers will make determinations for soldiers currently on active duty. This
authority will not be delegated further.
(c) Recruiting and retention managers (O5 or above) will make initial entry determinations that tattoos or brands
comply with this policy for National Guard soldiers. This authority will not be delegated further.
(d) Professors of military science (O-5 or above) will make initial entry determinations that tattoos or brands comply
with this policy for ROTC cadets. This authority will not be delegated further.
(e) The Director of Admissions will make initial entry determinations that tattoos or brands comply with this policy
for the U.S. Military Academy cadets. This authority will not be delegated further.</p>
<p>FYI, I am not trying to change anyone's mind about tattoos I am just trying to contribute to the discussion. </p>
<p>The Army as an institution would prefer no tattoos. That institution is made up of people and, over time, the people that make the policies change. That is why my opinion is still the same...some people in the Army will look down on tattoos and some will not.</p>
<p>Yes I am entitled to my opinion (just like everyone else who posts here). That is one of the great things about this country, we are able to say what we want and get tattoos/or not. I am proud that my husband, my son, and many others are willing to defend that right with their lives.</p>