<p>
[quote]
Of course Johns Hopkins, and schools where a large number of grads go on for more education (Harvard, Swarthmore, etc., etc.) get the shaft in the survey.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The survey didn't have a figure for JHU at all. All these schools are hurt by high percentages going on to grad school; maybe Swarthmore and JHU a little more than Dartmouth and Harvard. It's unfortunate they don't have a number for JHU as it would be interesting to see where they fit in.</p>
<p>GoNavyXC, I definitely knew what you were getting at, especially because of your screen name hence the joke. :) And please don't be presumptuous enough to say I don't know anything about the electoral college, for even people whose job it is to make political predictions say that this election is up in the air and way too close to call at this point, and, if anything, Obama has the slight edge at the moment. I know you don't have the crystal ball of answers so don't pretend to. We will see in the fall whether the future President's alma mater is on that list, but it is my belief and hope, that it will.</p>
<p>The payscale.com data relied on in the WSJ story is flawed on several counts. First, it doesn't differentiate by the mix of undergraduate majors at a school; but pay diverges sharply by undergraduate major, ranging from median lows of $34,100/52,000 for Religion and $34,900/52,000 for Education, to a high of $63,200/107,000 for Chemical Engineering. Consequently, tech-heavy schools are overrepresented toward the top of the charts, while schools with big ed schools, for example, rank much lower. </p>
<p>Second, it's based on nominal pay, not adjusted for regional differences in salary (for the same job) or cost-of-living. consequently, high-cost, high-salary regions like the Northeast and California are overrepresented, while lower-cost, lower-salary regions like the Midwest, much of the South, and the West (apart from California) are underrepresented. </p>
<p>Third, no effort is made to compare the graduates of various schools in the same job category. Some schools produce graduates who end up disproportionately in public service, not-for-profit (including academics and K-12 educators), and arts careers, all notoriously low-paying in comparison with private sector employment. Yet many of these same graduates are extremely happy in their work and datisfied with their career choices, even if they're not making $100K+. Consequently it would be a huge mistake to equate these data with the value added of education at any particular school. </p>
<p>Here, from top to bottom, is the complete list of schools listed by payscale.com of schools whose graduates earn more than 100,000 (median) mid-career:</p>
<ol>
<li> Dartmouth 58,000/134,000</li>
<li> Princeton 66.500/131,000</li>
<li> Stanford 70,400/129,000</li>
<li> MIT 72,200/126,000</li>
<li> Yale 59,100/126,000</li>
<li> Harvard 63,400/124,000</li>
<li> Caltech 75,500/123,000</li>
<li> Harvey Mudd 71,800/122,000</li>
<li> Penn 60,900/120,000</li>
<li>Notre Dame 56,300/116,000</li>
<li>Polytechnic U of NY 62,400/114,000</li>
<li>Cooper Union 62,200/114,000</li>
<li>Worcester Polytechnic 61,000/114,000</li>
<li>Chicago 53,400/113,000</li>
<li>UC Berkeley 59,900/112,000</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon 61,800/111,000</li>
<li>Rice 64,000/110,000</li>
<li>RPI 61,100/110,000</li>
<li>Cornell 60,300/110,000</li>
<li>Georgetown 55,000/110,000</li>
<li>Bucknell 54,100/110,000</li>
<li>Brown 56,200/109,000</li>
<li>Colgate 52,800/108,000</li>
<li> Columbia 59,400/107,000</li>
<li>Amherst 54,500/107,000</li>
<li>Lafayette 53,900/107,000</li>
<li>Bowdoin 48,100/107,000</li>
<li>Duke 58,900/106,000</li>
<li>Georgia Tech 58,300/106,000</li>
<li>Colorado School of Mines 56,100/106,000</li>
<li>Holy Cross 50,200/106,000</li>
<li>Stevens Inst. Of Technology 60,600/105,000</li>
<li>Lehigh 59,200/105,000</li>
<li>Occidental 51,900/105,000</li>
<li>Washington & Lee 53,600/104,000</li>
<li>Vanderbilt 51,200/104,000</li>
<li>Swarthmore 49,700/104,000</li>
<li>Davidson 46,100/104,000</li>
<li>UVA 52,700/103,000</li>
<li>Boston College 52,700/103,000</li>
<li>Carleton 47,500/103,000</li>
<li>Williams 51,700/102,000</li>
<li>Cal Poly San Luis Obispo 57,200/101,000</li>
<li>Villanova 55,800/101,000</li>
<li>UCLA 52,600/101,000</li>
<li>UC San Diego 51,100/101,000</li>
<li>Pomona 48,600/101,000</li>
</ol>
<p>Some notable national universities missing from top of the charts:<br>
WUSTL (US News 12th-ranked national university) no data
Northwestern (#14 tie) 52,700/95,900
Johns Hopkins (#14 tie) no data
Emory (#17) 52,100/91,600
Michigan (#25) 52,700/93,000
USC (#27) 54,800/99,600
UNC Chapel Hill (#28 tie) 42,900/81,500
Tufts (#28 tie) no data
Wake Forest (#30) no data
Brandeis (#31 tie) no data
NYU (#34) 50,300/95,600</p>
<p>Prominent LACs missing from top of the charts:
Wellesley (#4 ranked LAC) 42,800/83,500
Middlebury (#5 tie) 47,700/94,200
Haverford (#10) no data
Claremont McKenna (#11 tie) no data
Wesleyan (#11 tie) 46,500/97,900
Grinnell (#11 tie) 42,600/76,600
Vassar (#11 tie) 46,000/96,000
Smith (#17 tie) 44,000/83,900
Hamilton (#17 tie) 49,200/83,700
Oberlin (#20) 43,400/81,600
Colby (#22) 46,400/85,800
Bates (#24 tie) 47,300/96,500
Bryn Mawr (#24 tie) no data
Colorado College (#26 tie) 38,500/81,400
Macalester (#26 tie) no data
Scripps (#28 tie) no data
Mt. Holyoke (#28 tie) 42,400/94,200
Barnard (#30) no data</p>
<p>The payscale.com data relied on in the WSJ story is flawed on several counts. First, it doesn't differentiate by the mix of undergraduate majors at a school; but pay diverges sharply by undergraduate major, ranging from median lows of $34,100/52,000 for Religion and $34,900/52,000 for Education, to a high of $63,200/107,000 for Chemical Engineering. Consequently, tech-heavy schools are overrepresented toward the top of the charts, while schools with big ed schools, for example, rank much lower. Second, it's based on nominal pay, not adjusted for regional differences in salary (for the same job) or cost-of-living. consequently, high-cost, high-salary regions like the Northeast and California are overrepresented, while lower-cost, lower-salary regions like the Midwest, much of the South, and the West (apart from California) are underrepresented. Third, no effort is made to compare the graduates of various schools in the same job category. Some schools produce graduates who end up disproportionately in public service, not-for-profit (including academics and K-12 educators), and arts careers, all notoriously low-paying in comparison with private sector employment. Yet many of these same graduates are extremely happy in their work and datisfied with their career choices, even if they're not making $100K+.
Consequently it would be a huge mistake to equate these data with the value added of education at any particular school. </p>
<p>Here, from top to bottom, is the complete list of schools listed by payscale.com of schools whose graduates earn more than 100,000 (median) mid-career:</p>
<ol>
<li> Dartmouth 58,000/134,000</li>
<li> Princeton 66.500/131,000</li>
<li> Stanford 70,400/129,000</li>
<li> MIT 72,200/126,000</li>
<li> Yale 59,100/126,000</li>
<li> Harvard 63,400/124,000</li>
<li> Caltech 75,500/123,000</li>
<li> Harvey Mudd 71,800/122,000</li>
<li> Penn 60,900/120,000</li>
<li>Notre Dame 56,300/116,000</li>
<li>Polytechnic U of NY 62,400/114,000</li>
<li>Cooper Union 62,200/114,000</li>
<li>Worcester Polytechnic 61,000/114,000</li>
<li>Chicago 53,400/113,000</li>
<li>UC Berkeley 59,900/112,000</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon 61,800/111,000</li>
<li>Rice 64,000/110,000</li>
<li>RPI 61,100/110,000</li>
<li>Cornell 60,300/110,000</li>
<li>Georgetown 55,000/110,000</li>
<li>Bucknell 54,100/110,000</li>
<li>Brown 56,200/109,000</li>
<li>Colgate 52,800/108,000</li>
<li> Columbia 59,400/107,000</li>
<li>Amherst 54,500/107,000</li>
<li>Lafayette 53,900/107,000</li>
<li>Bowdoin 48,100/107,000</li>
<li>Duke 58,900/106,000</li>
<li>Georgia Tech 58,300/106,000</li>
<li>Colorado School of Mines 56,100/106,000</li>
<li>Holy Cross 50,200/106,000</li>
<li>Stevens Inst. Of Technology 60,600/105,000</li>
<li>Lehigh 59,200/105,000</li>
<li>Occidental 51,900/105,000</li>
<li>Washington & Lee 53,600/104,000</li>
<li>Vanderbilt 51,200/104,000</li>
<li>Swarthmore 49,700/104,000</li>
<li>Davidson 46,100/104,000</li>
<li>UVA 52,700/103,000</li>
<li>Boston College 52,700/103,000</li>
<li>Carleton 47,500/103,000</li>
<li>Williams 51,700/102,000</li>
<li>Cal Poly San Luis Obispo 57,200/101,000</li>
<li>Villanova 55,800/101,000</li>
<li>UCLA 52,600/101,000</li>
<li>UC San Diego 51,100/101,000</li>
<li>Pomona 48,600/101,000</li>
</ol>
<p>Some notable national universities missing from top of the charts:<br>
WUSTL (US News 12th-ranked national university) no data
Northwestern (#14 tie) 52,700/95,900
Johns Hopkins (#14 tie) no data
Emory (#17) 52,100/91,600
Michigan (#25) 52,700/93,000
USC (#27) 54,800/99,600
UNC Chapel Hill (#28 tie) 42,900/81,500
Tufts (#28 tie) no data
Wake Forest (#30) no data
Brandeis (#31 tie) no data
NYU (#34) 50,300/95,600</p>
<p>Prominent LACs missing from top of the charts:
Wellesley (#4 ranked LAC) 42,800/83,500
Middlebury (#5 tie) 47,700/94,200
Haverford (#10) no data
Claremont McKenna (#11 tie) no data
Wesleyan (#11 tie) 46,500/97,900
Grinnell (#11 tie) 42,600/76,600
Vassar (#11 tie) 46,000/96,000
Smith (#17 tie) 44,000/83,900
Hamilton (#17 tie) 49,200/83,700
Oberlin (#20) 43,400/81,600
Colby (#22) 46,400/85,800
Bates (#24 tie) 47,300/96,500
Bryn Mawr (#24 tie) no data
Colorado College (#26 tie) 38,500/81,400
Macalester (#26 tie) no data
Scripps (#28 tie) no data
Mt. Holyoke (#28 tie) 42,400/94,200
Barnard (#30) no data</p>
<p>None of the girl schools made the cut. I wonder why? Do they become stay at home moms and drive down the average? Or do they not make as much money as men.<br>
men:women ratio is 50:50 at the other schools, so the average pay for these women is significantly less than men, even more profound than the data provided.</p>
<p>Its not a gender issue. The all women schools are all very liberal arts driven, without a huge emphasis on recruiting. You don't see many of them pop up on the radar screen of top firms. Most go into grad programs. Similar co-ed top schools - such as Vassar, Wesleyan - aren't high on the list either.</p>
<p>The perceived top LACs (WASP) all made it.<br>
Wellesley, while ranked at number 4, couldn't crack the magic 6 figure.
Swarthmore is very liberal arts driven and most go into grad programs.</p>
<p>so this is after graduate school right?</p>
<p>So is Wellesley. WASP are much much more business driven. At Business school I knew only a couple of Wellesley alums, there were tons of WASP grads.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>These data aren't adjusted for regional differences in salary for the same job, or for regional differences in cost-of-living. Consequently, schools in the high-cost, high-salary East Coast, and to a lesser extent California, are overrepresented. Of the top 25 schools (ranked by mid-career salary), 18 are East Coast schools, 4 are California schools, only 2 (Notre Dame at #10, Chicago at #14) are in the Midwest, only 1 (Rice at #17) is in the South, and none are in the West (other than California). </p></li>
<li><p>The data compare apples to oranges. Salaries vary tremendously by undergrad major, ranging from lows of 34,100/52,00 for Religion majors and 34,900/52,000 for Education majors, all the way up to 63,200/107,000 for Chemical Engineering majors. Consequently, the mix of undergrad majors at a school can profoundly influence the salaries of its graduates; and engineering-heavy schools will do especially well in these sorts of salary surveys. Yet the payscale.com data lump all majors together indiscrimiately. Not surprisingly, 12 of the top 20 schools on the payscale.com list of top salaries are engineering-heavy schools (Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Polytechnic U of NY, Cooper Union, Worcester Polytechnic, UC Berkeley, Rice, Carnegie Mellon, RPI, Cornell). </p></li>
<li><p>The data do not compare salaries of graduates in the same field. Some schools have a disproportionate percentage of their graduates going into lower-paying public service, not-for-profit, or arts careers. According to payscale.com, the most popular job for Harvard alums is "Executive Director, Non-profit Organization," median salary $62,100, and the 9th most popular job for Harvard grads is "High School Teacher," median salary $47,900. Comparable data are not provided for Dartmouth, but the preference of many Harvard grads for these low-paying but ethically and psychologically rewarding careers could be a significant factor explaining the nominal salary gap between Dartmouth and Harvard grads.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I wonder why Dartmouth alum's salary is so high? Even at the 90 percenticle, Dartmouth alum pull in $321,00, second only to Yale's $326,000.</p>
<p>^This supposedly is not including any alums that went to graduate school. </p>
<p>
[quote]
WASP are much much more business driven. At Business school I knew only a couple of Wellesley alums, there were tons of WASP grads.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have found Swarthmore grads to be very unbusiness-oriented, hence the 20+% getting PhDs. Williams and Amherst I would certainly grant you, but you found 'tons' of Swat grads at Columbia B-school?</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is rather surprising, considering the average income in the U.S. is only in the mid-twenties.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I thought median salary in the US (which I guess, on average, could be construed as mid-career) was ~$45K. This would include the whole working population, not just the 27% that graduated from a four year college.</p>
<p>"But the list must be incomplete. Duke's not on it." </p>
<p>Duke is on the list at $106K.</p>
<p>This list isn't trying to measure 'who is happy with their career' or what percent of schools focus on non-profits vs engineering vs business (that is all implicit), but just absolute salary differences. I love when someone does a study and people jump all over all the 'flaws' and ignore what the intent of the study was in the first place.</p>
<p>Lol no not Swarthmore. Tons of Amherst, Williams. Pomona not as much. No Swat grads at all, I don't think I even knew one person who graduated from Swat.</p>
<p>^^ So does that debunk your theory about why none of the girl schools made the cut?</p>
<p>Looks like the Patriot League schools did well with Colgate, Holy Cross, Bucknell and Lafayette. Like Dartmouth, Colgate and Holy Cross alumni networks are among best in the country with HC's alumni giving rate at over 55%.</p>
<p>Today's WSJ had an interesting article about a survey of 1.2 million alums with BA's from 300 plus colleges ten years out, looking at starting pay and salaries after 10 years out. Not surprisingly, ivies and top E schools were at the top of this list. A bit more unexpected were the top liberal arts colleges, looking at the median salary at the 10 year point: Harvey Mudd, Bucknell, Colgate, Bowdoin, Amherst, and College of the Holy Cross.</p>
<p>Probably a stronger correlation to salary by looking directly at SAT/high school GPA/sports participation.</p>
<p>Holy Cross, Bucknell, and Colgate are all members of the Patriot League.</p>
<p>cherokeejew,
I think you are right that the correlations relate to factors that are related to the quality of the incoming student body. I think it is also pretty clear that it is NOT related to the Peer Assessment score of a school.</p>
<p>I highly doubt that it correlates to student quality. Polytech is #11 and it's a 3rd tier school. The most influential factors are the types of fields most students enter and the location. Polytech is mainly an engineering school and it's located in NYC.</p>