Yale Admissions Director Favors Submitting Scores

The Yale Admissions Director was recently on a pod cast where he said that contrary to information from other schools, Yale has found that standardized tests are single biggest predicter of success at Yale. He also admitted that when they see test optional they assume lower than average scores. It is rare to hear admissions people be so transparent and deviate from common thought. I hope this helps those that are trying to decide TO or no TO.

Data Dive, Part 2: Standardized Testing - Admissions Beat | Podcast on Spotify

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People with mid-700’s are asking me if they should go TO. Students need to realize that scores need to meet a benchmark but it’s not a matter of 790 being better than 760 for admissions. Keep the stress down!

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I don’t disagree, but the statements from the Yale AO will increase stress for some
meaning they would need to focus on test prep and test taking (inherently stressful for some) if they want to target Yale. Also, students in some locales, like California, can still have a difficult time finding test sites, for example, so that’s another stressor.

OTOH, maybe the admissions director being transparent will lead fewer students with non-competitive test scores to apply. Seems like an easy decision
if an unhooked student has test scores below the 25%ile, Yale is a wasted app.

ETA: I also wish Yale would publish their data showing test scores are the best predictors of college success (and how they define college success).

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It only increases stress (not just for some-- for anyone) if they decide to “target” Yale which truth be told-- is like an aspiring law student “targeting” the Supreme Court, or an 8th grader with a mean backhand “targeting” the US Open.

Nobody should be “targeting” Yale. It’s fine to decide you want to apply to Yale- in which case, do what they tell you to do (like anyone applying to a UC does what they tell you to do, or anyone applying to the Naval Academy has to do what they tell you to do).

If you don’t like taking standardized tests- or it causes you stress- simple answer. Apply TO to the many colleges which neither require nor “favor” submitting scores.

Pretty easy and stress free compared to the other stressors in a kids life, no?

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Find a school that fits you, don’t try to fit yourself to a school.

I think this honesty on the part of Yale will reduce stress in the long run. I hope it doesn’t mean endless prepping and test-taking but instead leads more students to find the right school for them.

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I did note I was talking about those who might target Yale, ‘target’ being just another word for putting it on one’s college list.

Unfortunately that’s not easy to figure out. It’s certainly not easy for college counselors (whether independent or school based) to figure out, let alone a student and their parents, because most TO schools aren’t transparent like Yale.

Prior to hearing the Yale AO’s comments, I would have said Yale prefers scores just like Michigan and NU (to take two more examples)
but I have the benefit of having been around the industry for the last six years or so.

If you want to see the struggle, go over to the Auburn thread where many posters think Auburn is TO, despite the website clearly saying they are not
although there is a TO pathway for certain students. People believe what they want to, even when it’s in black and white. When things aren’t transparent it’s that much more confusing.

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The honesty is surprising but not the fact that Yale (and likely other highly selective schools) favors submitting test scores. I think it is especially true for unhooked kids. Fortunately, there are lots of great schools where the absence of a test score won’t hurt at all.

@compmom The stressful part for my daughter is over thankfully as all of her apps are completed. Now the stress of waiting on the answers kids in for mom and dad. The irony is that it becomes hard to live in the moment and enjoy our last months with daughter while we anxiously await college responses. We are realizing that launching a child leads to empty nesting.

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I think ultimately more transparency is almost always better. You cannot eliminate performance stress, but stress over whether you are using the right strategy can at least be minimized.

By the way, my understanding is at least some colleges have found that standardized test scores are sometimes more predictive than raw grades/GPAs, but part of why is that there is very little standardization of curriculums or evaluations. Whether they are more predictive than carefully normalized grades is a different issue. But then normalizing grades is tricky, and sometimes test scores may play an important role in that process.

What seems increasingly likely to me is at least a lot of highly-selective but nominally test-optional colleges de facto value very high test scores because they help validate very high internal academic ratings. Like, they just may not be confident giving very high academic ratings to all the applicants who have gotten near-perfect grades in the most rigorous classes available to them. And of course all those applicants have done what they can. But if these colleges are not confident that every applicants’ most rigorous classes are really all that challenging, then absent validation from a very high test score, they may still have uncertainty about how to rate that applicant in terms of likely academic performance at their college.

What the Yale AO said is not necessarily inconsistent with all that, or maybe could be seen as a variation. For example, he noted Yale saw high math scores as indicative of persistence in science majors. This is interesting to me because of course MIT quickly went back to test required. And I suspect this is all consistent with the idea that at least at these colleges, just having all As in your HS science and math classes isn’t necessarily enough to show you will really be able to handle the science classes at these colleges.

Or maybe it would coming out of some high schools, but not others. But whatever that means exactly, it could be a version of this idea of at least often desiring a very high test score to help validate a very high academic rating, sufficiently high in this case for the purpose of being confident the applicant will be able to succeed in advanced science classes at their colleges.

On the other hand, he suggested that while high test scores were equally important to the basic question of whether the applicant was prepared academically for Yale, once you were past that threshold, the transcript, and specific stories told by the transcript, were more likely to be actual difference makers. Again, at least loosely, this sort of fits the validation theory in that once they are confident enough in the general level of academic preparation indicated by the transcript and test scores combined, then the test score has served its purpose.

In fact, he made reference to the fact this is usually done quickly, and that fits with the fact Yale now does an initial quick review by a senior AO, who is basically filtering out all the applications where they think there is very little chance that the applicant will qualify for admission. Those that pass that initial review then get sent on to regional AOs for full holistic review.

Obviously passing that initial review at Yale is critical, and therefore if high test scores can help you get past that stage, they will almost automatically “improve your odds”. But it sounded to me like that may really be most if not all of what high test scores do–like he said they don’t even look at them again in committee, but do often look again at the transcript. But again, helping you get past the initial review is not a small thing!

OK, so if nothing else, the practical takeaway of this seems to be that if you have high test scores, you might want to submit them even if they are below the median, maybe even below the 25th (although maybe not too much below). Because it may be more helpful than harmful in a broader range of cases than some originally assumed, even if all they do is help you avoid getting weeded out in the initial review stage.

And something like that is probably happening at many highly selective colleges these days.

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I have not listened to the podcast, but did he talk about whether the average submitted score has risen since Yale went TO? I just went to Yale’s website and noticed that the FAQ only lists the range for before Yale became TO during the pandemic. I appreciate the decision not to list current scores because it probably reduces the chance of an arms race in which the scores get inflated because people don’t submit unless they are at the tippy-top. I know that at D24’s high school, the majority of kids no longer submit scores, which means that the median SAT has shot up on the school profile.

Q: What is the average SAT or ACT score of admitted students?
A: Rather than calculate an average score, Yale reports the middle 50% of test scores (the 25th to the 75th percentiles). For incoming first-years those ranges were as follows: SAT-Evidence-Based Reading and Writing: 720-770; SAT-Math: 730-790; ACT Composite: 33-35. This means that 25% of incoming first-year students scored below these ranges and 25% scored above them. In the last admissions cycle there were more than five thousand applicants with scores at or above the 75th percentile scores listed here who were not offered admission. Please note: this data reflect score ranges before Yale temporarily adopted a test-optional policy. While Yale’s test-optional policy is in effect, the admissions office will not report data on the test scores or test-sharing choices of applicants, admitted students, or enrolling students.

Based on this, a kid with a 1480 or so should feel as if they could submit their score to Yale and at least be considered without being immediately discounted, but the conventional wisdom at D24’s school is that students should not submit to the most rejective colleges if their scores aren’t close to perfect.

Exactly! Well put @NiceUnparticularMan as always.

This is interesting. I am assuming the 5,000 applicants at or above the 75th percentile who weren’t offered admission is a combination of SAT/ACT considering only around 5800 total students actually score a 1560 or better on the SAT. I find it hard to believe that they’d be rejecting the vast majority of them (and not every student scoring a 1560 or above is applying to Yale anyway).

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You are probably right that it includes ACT. Or " In the last admissions cycle there were more than five thousand applicants with scores at or above the 75th percentile scores listed here who were not offered admission" could mean just one of the subtests (Math, ERBW) since the FAQ does not list the composite 25-75 score. Anyway, I have no idea how typical it is for students who score very high on one subtest to have a much lower score on the other, but I certainly know some kids who get very high scores in math or verbal and then good but not top scores in the other test.

This. You are kidding yourself if you are applying to any highly selective holistic school, not just Yale, if you think going TO as a student from certain zip codes/high schools is not going to hurt you. AO’s are not blind to the fact that not submitting a score from certain areas/HS more likely means you did not test well, not that you did not have an opportunity to test.

I also agree with @NiceUnparticularMan there is a clear intent on the part of Yale to reduce the admissions workload in a true holistic assessment of qualified candidates by raising the threshold of what a qualified student is. We see objective indicias in their new screening process and in their recent policy to be selective in granting interviews. The total number of Yale AO’s has not grown in the same proportion as applications (not even close). There is probably some internal determination that there is a limit to the number of AO’s to maintain some level of consistency in evaluations.

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Per CDS 88% submit - take out athletes, etc. - and you sort of know you have to submit to have a chance - in most cases.

I’m not sure they provided info one wouldn’t have already assumed.

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I agree a lot of people had looked at recent data from the CDS and such and come to similar conclusions.

But still, I think hearing it from an AO is helpful to the extent it means you no longer have to just rely on inference.

And then the details of the discussion seem important to me too. Like whether high test scores is helping a lot of applicants is one question, but how and why can be informative too.

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GeorgiaTech as well.

I haven’t listened but I think what they are getting at is not so much as predictors of ability to succeed, but at preparedness. Without the scores and with GPA alone colleges are strguling to evaluate how prepared students are. More than one have stated have to add more lower level STEM classes bc students are not testing out at the same rate. IMO its not TO in isolation, but combined with the pandemic, there are huge gaps in students knowledge even though they still have 4.0s - most schools are just meeting the students where they are.

We have seen this at our boarding school, where they kept up with the curriculum but too many kids coming in don’t have foundational knowledge, particularly '25 and bellow. But this is BS so they just move you back a level, no transcript penalty, the grades reset and you go on from there - even in the middle of the year.

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But I wonder if the ability to deal effectively with testing stress could be viewed almost as a qualifying criteria, for someone pursuing extremely selective schools?

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He did not address your question. I found it festinating that he was frank and transparent, deciphering how it shakes out is a whole different story. I will report back in about 6 weeks with any info that we have gained. I just hope we are not looking at a deferral. I hope they rip the band aide off one way ot another.

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Perhaps the more practical reason is that having SAT/ACT scores reduces the size of the applicant cohort that looks “excellent” by the usual US academic measures, so that admissions readings do not need to cut as many “excellent” applicants to get to the admit class. Yale is not Caltech (which likely finds SAT/ACT to be too low-ceiling to be useful for the level of academic strength it seeks based on other indicators), so the SAT/ACT has some use in determining whether applicants meet what Yale considers its minimum academic standards for admission.