This is key - AOs know some schools well, but when they don’t they can’t consider grades on their own.
2 Likes
The other thing with access is cost. I just got the payment notification for S24’s 4 APs - that is $400! For people without a lot of extra in their budget that is quite a chunk.
4 Likes
$453.25 for my D24 for 4 AP tests. I said the same thing about access/equity - it feels like such an issue.
1 Like
In 1990 that “lazy kid” with a 1520 and a 3.2 most likely had undiagnosed ADHD which is far less likely today. They weren’t necessarily hurt by grade inflation but rather saved by reliance on a standard method of evaluation. The SAT score acted as what is being discussed which is “confirmatory”.
3 Likes
At our large competitive HS, about 50% of freshman take AP Human Geography. One STEM track does a science AP each of the 4 years. So those kids are taking 2 APs freshman year.
Colleges say they want high GPAs and rigor so families hear: take as many APs as possible. Students get the extra point bump to their GPA and show rigor in the most straightforward way.
For a local reference point, the current pool of UGA’s EA mid 50% applicant has 5-11 AP/IB/DE courses and last year’s EA mid 50% admits had 8-13 AP/IB/DE courses. That many APs seems pretty standard for my son’s peers.
Just one more aspect of the hyper competitive college application environment.
2 Likes
True, but the reality is that many higher ranked high schools, including top private schools, limit APs (or have eliminated them completely).
It seems many of the high schools where students take a relatively high number of APs may not be perceived as rigorous, and are using APs in a confirmatory manner.
In these cases, the class average AP test scores are important (and usually on the school profile). If many or most of the kids are getting 1s or 2s on the tests, those APs might not be best for those students.
2 Likes
There is a reason APs are limited at our school - the workload is pretty demanding. AP BC is 1hr on the very best night. Outcome is 95% 4+. The AP passing rate for the school is above 90% as well.
1 Like
In some well ranked public schools, APs have become the de facto “highest rigor” offering, with accelerated students starting freshman year with usually one AP: Human Geography or World History and moving on to 2 or more AP sophomore year, 3+ junior year and ending with senior year potentially being an all AP class schedule except for gym and lunch.
Not necessarily because the student wants to take all APs senior year but because that is what is on offer due to school’s tracks. Two of my children ended up taking mostly APs their senior year because there weren’t other options available.
Over 90% of AP tests taken at our school get a 3 or higher.
5 Likes
This is our school. Our school limits APs to juniors and seniors - you can take no more than 4 per year so the max is 8. Nonetheless we do send 15-20 kids to T20 schools every year (typically 5-6 Ivy).
2 Likes
I was getting at why kids are taking so many APs. I too was surprised that our school had freshman taking AP courses. If APs are supposed to be college level courses, how can half the freshman class successfully handle this content 4 years ahead of schedule? Either APs are a hoax or we have an extraordinarily talented pool of students. But this the system we have.
I see it more as how high schools and students are pushing for higher and higher numbers, which doesn’t make sense after a certain point. Much like the guidance to not submit scores unless you’re above the median or whatever the prevailing advice is. Doesn’t that mean pretty quickly only people with 1600 or 36 are submitting? At our HS, kids are taking online APs to get that GPA higher. Val/Sal require an 4.8+ GPA. I am curious what the theoretical max is. I should ask my kid - they probably talk about it.
I don’t know how our HS compares against a Ivy feeder private school but it’s a top school for metro Atlanta, with plenty of tippy top SAT and ACT scores. To stand out, to be a competitive, the high school offers all but a couple of the foreign language APs and the kids take additional APs that don’t fit in the 6 course semester. I think it’s madness. My kid will “only” have 11 APs at the end of senior year (“only” four 5s so far, at least no 1s, 2s). He’s that 1990 lazy kid referenced above so we’re definitely nostalgic for the good old days.
1 Like
That may very well could be the case, but my point was merely illustrating the extreme difficulty in 2023 for unhooked students carrying GPAs in the low 3s with a 1500+ SAT score to gain a spot at a T20 school.
1 Like
“If your score is below 1500, then you really shouldn’t submit it.” -Tulane rep at a local admissions event, last December.
Their AVERAGE SAT score for admitted students is 1448 so I don’t know why they’d say that? Trying to boost their profile?
https://admission.tulane.edu/apply/getting-into-tulane/new-class-profile
4 Likes
Sure seems that way, doesn’t it?
2 Likes
Yes, the relationship between AP scores and grades in AP courses says more about the school (or at least those particular AP courses at the school) than anything else. However, even though the quality of the school’s courses is not really under student control, it does affect how well prepared the student is for future work in college.
For less advanced material, SAT subject tests (formerly Achievement tests) once existed, but their use declined (probably for accessibility reasons and because they were not the incumbent default tests like the SAT/ACT), and they were discontinued.
Depends on what colleges consider “good”, and what applicants think colleges consider “good”.
I.e. is an AP 4 a good score to report when applying to College X?
Yes.
If a 4 in Physics C disqualifies you from MIT, than no score almost certainly does as well.
1 Like
? There are introductory physics classes at MIT for kids who did not take it in HS, or who took physics but not a sufficiently rigorous courses. What point are you trying to make? Not every MIT student went to a HS with a zillion AP’s or access to DE…
1 Like
A college may not necessarily have to use an individual applicant’s AP scores relating to AP classes to estimate the high school’s course quality. Past students at the college who came from the same high school who sent in their final transcripts and 12th grade AP scores to the college can be used to correlate AP course grade and AP score for those AP courses at that high school. That can also be used to infer the quality of prerequisite courses. For example, if A in AP calculus typically comes with a 5 score, then the college may infer that lower level math is also of enough quality for students to do well in AP calculus and the test, so an applicant who “only” has precalculus in 11th grade can benefit from that assessment of the school’s math courses.
A similar evaluation can be done with IB course grades and IB scores of students who previously came to the college from IB schools.
1 Like
I was just trying to come up with an example where someone might think a 4 is not good enough? I think a 4 is good for all colleges. A 4 doesn’t need context. Just like a 1500, even if its bellow the 25%. A 1500 is good enough to send.