Yale Admissions Director Favors Submitting Scores

Applying to College
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So the Yale Admissions Podcast addressed this, and the answer is . . . there is no answer:

[Mark] Yeah, and this relates to something that we actually got a listener email about, which is– it’s a good question, is about, do you need to have a spike in your application? And this is– what’s interesting is this is not a term that I had heard before. But it sounds like it’s pretty common out there among students who are talking to each other. So, Hannah, can you like– what’s the concept of a spike?
[Hannah] Yeah, so the idea is that you could either be well-rounded, or you could be pointy in your activities. So if you’re well-rounded, you do a lot of different varied things. And if you’re pointy or you have a spike, then you have one thing that you’re really, really, really good at.
[Mark] Yeah, and I, over the years, have gotten tons of questions from students, saying, do you prefer well-rounded students, or pointy students?
[Hannah] Right. Yeah.
[Mark] And my answer is, yes. All kinds.
[Hannah] Yes.
[Mark] And it’s interesting, because I know that this actually is a line that admissions officers have used over the years, where they explain that what they’re looking for is a well-rounded student body, not necessarily well-rounded students and I can understand where that’s coming from, but I think it’s much too dismissive of the well-rounded student, who maybe isn’t particularly spiky in one area. So I think people hear that and say, oh I’ve got to be spiky so that my spike is going to join all the other spikes and then together–
[Reed] Right.
[Mark] We’ll be this big spiky wheel or something, I don’t know.
[Hannah] Yeah, like whatever you do, that’s what you should do. I mean, if you happen to be the kind of person who wants to pursue a lot of varied things, if you’re a little bit of a jack of all trades, that’s great. Do that. And if you have this one clear passion, or spike, that you’re exceptionally good at, then do that. But one is not better than the other.
[Mark] And we see students go in the wrong direction both ways, right? We see students who are passionate with a capital P about something, but they think that they need to have a bunch of other stuff in their applications.
[Hannah] Right, yeah.
[Mark] So they’re just participants and involved, but it doesn’t mean much for us. And we also see students who really would love to be pursuing really disparate interests and contributing a lot different ways. They say, oh, I’ve got to have a spike. And so I need to abandon these things that I care about to double or triple down on this one thing. And no, you don’t need to do that at all.
[Hannah] Don’t– just don’t make these decisions based on how it’s going to look on your resume or on your college application. Make them based on how you actually want to be spending your time.
[Reed] Yes, there is a whole spectrum of activity, from the student who does it, all the student who does one thing. And when you get to college, we are not going to expect the student who does one thing to suddenly become a jack of all trades. And we’re not going to expect the student who loves doing it all to suddenly focus in on their extracurricular activities in college. You’re eventually going to have to select a major or majors. You’re not going to have to focus down your activities to one.
[Hannah] Yeah.

As usual, it is important to note this is just Yale, other colleges could, say, go all in on the “big spiky wheel”.

But for Yale specifically, it appears they have no particular preference.

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Here’s the only thing I know for sure - follow your interests. I am confident that making choices “to impress AOs” is not the way to go.

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Absolutely!

MIT has been continuously saying that too. As a general rule, kids should enthusiastically do what they are actually interested in doing, for their own reasons. If every great kid does that, then different great kids will end up with different great applications. And then different great kids will end up at different great colleges as a result.

And from a broader perspective, that sounds fantastic to me. What throws a wrench into the system is when you start thinking every great kid should end up at the same great college, or some artificially limited set of great colleges. But if you can deflect that wrench, your great kid can end up having great experiences both in secondary school and in college, which should be the goal.

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More like, a low test score, or lack of a test score if one comes from a well resourced environment where testing is readily available and well known, can be a negative differentiating factor when applying to a highly selective college that is not test-blind, but a high test score is not a positive differentiating factor.

The same can be said for top end GPA in the most demanding course selection resulting in being one of the top few in academic achievement that your counselor has seen in their career.

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Yes - because you are implying that for “wealth imbalance” to exist, one party must be exceptionally wealthy, or “among the wealthiest” - which is not the case.

We’re talking about the “wealth” that allows a family to afford to live in an area with a good school district, maybe for one parent to stay home and raise kids, for parents to be able to set aside time every day to engage with their kids… the entire list mentioned above: Yale Admissions Director Favors Submitting Scores - #31 by DigitalDad.

I’m definitely not “rich”, but I was able to afford to actively “nurture” my daughter for 18 years, progressing her at an accelerated rate, at a broader range and deeper depth. Despite her “nature”, the academic outcome (that eventually opened certain doors for her) would not have been the same without it.

When your “wealth” is well below the average for your area, then above represent enormous privileges - and it does show in standardized tests.

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I would think human nature being human nature, anyone with a great test score will receive far greater attention than a test optional candidate. It’s more data! These results are not surprising…

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Yes, I think it was always obvious you should want to have a high test score to submit, if possible.

I think the interesting question is more which test scores you should submit. And I think the practical takeaway is for Yale and colleges with similar preferences, you should be submitting down to a lower level than some people had initially assumed.

And then the sort of dark implication of that is if your only available test score is below even that point, and you are otherwise not a special case, your chances are getting really slim.

But . . . we knew that too, right? If you are not a special case you need really, really good academic qualifications. And in fact it is no less true if your grades are below a certain point–there is likely no strategy to get around that if you are not a special case.

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I think this is so key. We are looking at the early Ivy app as a canary in the coal mine. If D24 is denied, then we can pivot to a less selective school for ED2. We are just hoping to avoid the purgatory of Deferral.

What I am curious about is how the Ivies view a low A GPA versus a high A(100 point scale with 93 as an A). How do they look at a 36 v 35. etc…

I guess we will know a bit more in a about a month.

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So recently I have been spending really way too much time looking at scattergrams for our HS available on SCOIR. Not because it has anything to do with my S24, I just find them interesting.

And part of what fascinates me is that it is really obvious that different “peer” schools can have pretty different patterns.

Like, at some colleges there is a relatively hard boundary between where there are a good number of admittances and where there are almost none, and at the most selective colleges those lines are definitely being drawn very finely.

Like, we use a GPA system that goes above 4.0 for A+s, and while basically no one gets all A+s, some kids get more than others. And you can see a few of these colleges apparently discriminating in the above 4.0 range, which I think is basically the same thing as discriminating in the 93 to 100 range.

But then peer colleges might well have more rejects even in the high range, and also a few more acceptances lower. Too low and that is likely hooked applicants including recruited athletes, but at least sometimes it seems obvious they are just a bit more flexible in terms of GPA. I have started thinking of these as “smear” colleges because the acceptances and rejects are more smeared together in the top corner of the scattergram.

In terms of test scores, same deal–some colleges seem like they have harder requirements, some more flexible. I have only found one where it is possible a 35 would not be good enough, and that may be just a small data set issue. But there are a few more where it appears a 1500/34 might be out of range, even for those with what would have been competitive GPAs. And then a few more where at least a 1500/34 definitely seems like a hard requirement.

And yet then I have found peers of those (including Ivies) where maybe not so much, at least with a good enough GPA. Again, these are “smear” colleges in the sense they are rejecting more people with really good numbers, but then accepting more people with not the best numbers.

Anyway, as noted, this is all pretty interesting to me. Even more interesting to me would be to find out if these colleges had the same relative patterns at every HS, or if in fact in some cases they might have different relative patterns for different high schools . . . .

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Depends on school. For example Harvard historically defers a huge number of REA candidates. A deferral there doesn’t tell you much. A reject would be a big red flag. Yale (and I think maybe Princeton) in recent years have rejected more and deferred far fewer. A deferral could signal that you are in the ballpark. That has definitely been the case with Stanford which defers very few. A deferral there means you are very competitive.

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Test scores are one piece of the fabric. If a kid has a 4.0 GPA, and plays tons of sports/volunteers/part-time job, they are in good shape regardless of submitting a Test Score. If an application lacks depth, then the test score becomes critical. My son did the SAT and did well. But, he quickly pointed out how there were inherent biases in the “reading” section. Math is math. I personally don’t think tests capture the “character” of the student that you want on campus. It is a very narrow snapshot of them as a person which is why I think TO is the way to go.

Without SAT’s, more work is involved for admissions officers. That is part of the equation as well.

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Only if you look at test scores in isolation. As discussed up thread, tests seem to be used more frequently to gauge how hard it was to get that 4.0.

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This is a very common misperception.

If your kid is at a HS where there are 22 valedictorians every year- no, kid is not in “good shape” for the low percentage admit schools with just tons of sports, volunteering, part time job. There are folks in my neighborhood who are flabbergasted that their “never got less than an A” kid was rejected from a mega competitive school (and often shut out of all of them). Your regional adcom is likely going to know which HS’s practice massive grade inflation-- and that’s when test scores are really valuable.

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While I agree this is basically what the Yale AO was saying is not true for Yale, I note on the third hand, I think there is a more meaningful sense of being “in good shape” which would still be true.

Namely that such a kid will very likely be able to turn such a profile into several great college options. Those options might not include Yale, and might not include any colleges as selective as Yale, but that is definitely not exhausting the great options available.

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Absolutely. And a kids GC is likely to be helpful- if not in “You’ll get in to Yale” but in directing
“kids like you get into Vanderbilt and Tulane and Emory and Rochester and once they are over their disappointment at not getting in to Yale, discover they love where they are”.

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This would be interesting to see. Our school has about 20/90 girls apply to Ivies so the SCIOR can be all over the place. The girls with 95 and above with 1530 tend to do very well. We also have some athletes with lower grades/scores that throw off the scattergram. We were able to identify one girl from 23 who was SCEA deffered/accepted at our first choice with about 1 point higher GPA(although I believe the posted grades reflect senior year grades and D24 only has through 11) and I am hoping a high ACT equals that out. We did find out from counselor that her recommendation is going to say that D24 has increased rigor and grades every year. We are glad that she is pointing that out even though it is reflected in transcript. It really is amazing how helpful the counselors in highly resourced schools can be. Just another example of soci economic impact. We will use the advantages that we are afforded but it certainly is not a level playing field.

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Ideally, that should be happening at every quality school. But it isn’t. One of our friends ended at a weaker than anticipated high school post-Covid mental distress and has been trying to leave. The entire math department resigned last year because the school wasn’t willing to allow kids to be re-assigned. So, they are technically progressing in math but they have not completed the curriculum on their transcript, at least not in the year that it lists. The new math department couldn’t figure anything out until they had everyone take placement exams in late October! The parents were all moaning about how hard the math was in physics, which they teach to tenth graders, so they have the excuse of teaching it with Algebra! Not Algebra II. She finally asked because the teachers showed very simple equations at back-to-school night. I do not think this school is alone.

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I think most parents at our school appreciate how the school has handled this challenge, but your story illustrates my point and why test scores may be relevant to colleges.

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Splitting hairs at that point. The way to stand out is outside of the classroom…

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Or INSIDE the classroom. There are a lot of nuances that aren’t reflected in a GPA. And a lot of kids who do not have a perfect transcript but whose teachers comment that the kid was much more interested in being challenged in an area which was not a natural strength vs. getting easy A’s. That really resonates. Professors don’t like to teach an entire lecture hall of kids who are asking “will this be on the final?”

A kid can stand out in lots of ways…

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