The most recent admits I know to Yale had one thing in common- rigor.
The gifted poet who was taking BC Calc, Physics C. The incredible musician who got a recommendation from a Chem teacher. Not that everyone has to be good at everything… but kids who had clearly challenged themselves academically and stretched. They weren’t the kids who had all A’s, who worried about “protecting” their GPA’s (and teachers know who those kids are), but they were the kids whose teachers typically write that they are a joy and inspiration to teach.
I think that’s why Yale can be confident in a first cut academic review. Kids who present with a perfect academic record- not so much as an A-, but have looked for the easiest path intellectually- probably not going to take advantage of what Yale has to offer. GPA- yes. EC’s and leadership or significant level of artistry/achievement outside the classroom- yes. And academic rigor- yes.
That’s why when the HS kids complain about the classmate who got in without a perfect record “and wasn’t president of anything”-- but took a challenging schedule AND took care of an elderly grandparent or disabled sibling after school in lieu of being yearbook editor… you can remind them that holistic actually means holistic.
This seems right on point given what they said in the Yale Admissions podcast. They do discourage things like counting APs, but they otherwise describe the rigor of your courses, in a substantive way, as one of the most important parts of their review and a necessary (but not sufficient) factor. And it was explicitly included in their discussion of Initial Review as an independent factor (“We need to see that you stepped up to the plate for the academic challenge, whatever is available in your context.”).
This sort of thing has convinced me these low acceptance percentages these days both are more daunting but also less daunting than they appear, depending on what sort of application you are really going to submit.
If they peg you as a 4.0 UW but who took easier classes to get there–you may be out in Initial Review. Also in fact if you have really narrow academic interests. Not their thing.
But if you are a 3.95 UW AND you really took the hard classes available AND you seem to really enjoy a lot of different types of classes . . . well, your odds just got better because of all the former who got pulled out of the competitive pool.
And this happens with activities and personal factors too. If you really pay attention, they have some ideas of what they don’t particularly want, people who may be great students somewhere but who do not seem to really be the sort to benefit from and contribute to the whole experience at Yale. And many variations on what they do want, but I think if they peg you as not likely to be any of those sorts of students, you are very likely out quickly.
But again, if you don’t get taken out for those reasons, now your odds are better still.
I don’t know how many people are actually surviving these Initial Reviews, but I have my suspicion the admit rate at that point is way, way higher. Not at all a lock, but not astronomically low either.
You’re probably thinking of Wheaton in Illinois. Wheaton in Mass. is more in the ballpark, and I’m pretty sure that’s the school @tsbna44 was referring to.
No…I was thinking of Wheaton in Massachusetts. I have been to both campuses (Yale and Wheaton) and know grads of both colleges. They are both in New England. They both have some variation (although not the same) of an open curriculum.
Other than that, they are very very very different college types, in my opinion.
My two cents is Yale and Brown are different enough that they can kinda head in different directions from there.
With Yale as the first choice–among universities, overlap colleges often seem to include Rice and WUSTL. And then maybe Rochester, Wake, and William & Mary.
Among LACs–actually, I think that really depends on what exactly about Yale appeals. For a person who likes Yale but also Brown, I am thinking more the Vassar direction (which makes a lot of sense for historic reasons). Wesleyan. Haverford. Carleton and Macalester. Oberlin and Kenyon. Kalamazoo and Allegheny.
I, like @Shelby_Balik, originally thought @thumper1 was thinking of the Wheaton in IL (based on the mention of religious affiliation as a differentiating factor between Yale and Wheaton). For sure Norton, MA and New Haven, CT are different as are the financial resources of the schools, etc. But I don’t think either has a religious affiliation; Brown and Wheaton both have the open curriculum (but not Yale which I think has a pretty typical list of distribution requirements)? Wheaton no longer has the Connections Curriculum that @tsbna44 found mention of in an article…it was replaced several years ago with the open curriculum during the time when a Brown grad was the provost at Wheaton (MA).
@cag2, in terms of schools for the list that are easier admits (agree it would be helpful to know what your D loves about Yale (and Brown) to make better suggestions,) my D loved Brown (for its open curriculum, vibe/culture, location, size, etc.) and found lots to love (or at least very much like) about Beloit, Dickinson, Macalester, Denison, Oberlin, Bryn Mawr, Dickinson, Skidmore…She also loved a lot about some additional reachy schools (Pomona, Vassar, Smith, Wes, Wellesley, Grinnell, Carleton, etc.) In every case, there were things that weren’t the same at these other schools as Brown and tradeoffs to be grappled with (Grinnell Iowa is not particularly similar to Providence, RI; a suburb of LA is not a small New England city, long lists of distribution requirements are not the same as an open curriculum, etc.), but lots of research led her to feel really good about a lot of different options.
For the attributes that seemed most important to her during the application process, Vassar and Smith were maybe the ones that came closest to Brown overall, but in the end she chose neither Vassar nor Smith even though both were options. Maybe some of those schools would appeal to your D (though she’ll still need to decide whether to apply early to Yale). Two kids at my D’s small public high school got into Yale last year. Both had outstanding ECs. One applied REA and was deferred and then accepted. The other applied RD and was accepted. Both got into at least 4 or 5 single digit acceptance rate schools - their applications had the strong academics but also something unique outside the classroom.
It might be helpful if OP did a chance me - or told us more.
All we know is this and it’s not a lot to go on - we don’t know rigor, test scores, ECs, etc. and obviously there’s a lot more involved then was shared - to know what might be good alternatives.
"My daughter is in love with Yale, in particular and then Brown. She has very high test scores; she’s been a straight A student Sophomore and Junior year. But she had a mixed Freshman year with As and Bs during the COVID remote year, which was a hard year for us as a family – as it was for most people.
She wants to EA Yale, but I am thinking the weaker Freshman year would make admissions impossible"
I just wanted to reiterate what was said above but usually does not set in at this point. She needs to fall in love right now with other schools that are not Brown or Yale because odds are she won’t get into either. It will feel a heck of a lot better on December 12 if Yale or Brown does not work out, for example, and she loves a Wesleyan or a Vassar or a Connecticut College for ED2 and/or RD. Those alt-love schools need to be discovered and fallen in love with right now.
The happiest kids at Yale right now are the kids who were in love with Skidmore or Bryn Mawr or Smith or Wellesley but took their shot and ended up at Yale. The happiest kids at Brown right now are the kids who were in love with Sarah Lawrence or Bard or Wash U or GW or fill in the blanks- and then they got lucky at ended up at Brown.
It is so tempting to assume that the admit rate reflects a very high percentage of kids who have no chance of getting in. Their scores are below the 25th percentile, their GPA is weak (or they took easy classes) and they have nothing outside the classroom to distinguish themselves.
This is NOT the case. I can speak for all the years I interviewed for Brown- once in a blue moon I saw a kid who was so far off the mark that it was crazy. And those were the kids who usually walked in to the interview saying “I want to go to culinary school but my parents are making me apply to Brown because my grandfather went there, and if I get in, he’ll pay for it”. Ok kid, fair enough. I’ll interview you with an open mind.
But dozens upon dozens of fantastic, unbelievable, off the charts kids getting rejected. And if I saw dozens-- interviewing in a city out in the midwest- the Adcom’s saw hundreds and thousands.
If you can fall in love with someplace else- FANTASTIC. That will make the acceptances to Y or B that much sweeter. But do it now before it’s too hard to redirect.
There’s a kid in my town-- lovely, sweet, special, gifted. He did not get into his “one and only”- an HYP with miniscule acceptance rates. Both parents are alums. But he’s lovely, sweet, special and gifted- so he got into another miniscule acceptance rate school.
And trudged off to college in August like he’d been sentenced to the federal penitentiary. Going to an ivy league school which matched virtually all of his criteria (except it wasn’t his top choice) and he was MISERABLE about it.
Don’t let this be your household. Fall in love- sure. with a realistic and sane option. And then be bowled over if you get in elsewhere.
I note I believe of the somewhat Yale-like universities I mentioned, all but Rice have ED II (so WUSTL, William & Mary, Wake, and Rochester).
Not that I would suggest you have to ED II, but basically a lot of great colleges are more than happy to get applications from people who do not get into a Yale after REA.
The problem, of course, is you can’t do that if you also want to RD Brown and would prefer Brown to those others–or if Yale defers you and you want to see how that goes. But I agree at least the concept of having other strongly preferred schools in mind is a good one. Ideally, in fact, every college on your list is one you would love.
I agree with tsbna44, grades are only one piece of the admissions puzzle and for schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale and perhaps to an ever so slightly lesser extent with Brown, the applicants overall holistic application … letters of recommendation, essays, expressed interests, fine arts
sports participation, leadership, research experience, local/state/national awards and achievements, community participation and volunteer work, geographic/racial/ethnic/economic factors etc etc etc are the difference between getting in with a 4.0 and a 1500+ and not getting in with a 4.0 and a 1500+.
My daughter was a 4.0 and 1500+ student at an extremely competitive private school in a big city and her school counselor and two private counselors all unanimously discouraged her from
applying REA to Yale because her application beyond her grades and SAT scores was just not compelling enough for a school like Yale in their opinions (and adding it up, we are talking a total of more than 60+ years of college counseling experience).
So my personal opinion is that any B grades will make it very difficult to gain acceptance to Yale, but not impossible. In addition to your daughter’s grades and standardized test scores, focus on all the other stuff in her application, which is equally important to her grades, and let her apply to Yale REA if the rest of her application reads really strongly … like the best application out of about 20 in relation to her activities, interests, leadership, experiences etc.
I feel like she applies SCEA to Yale if she really loves it. As it is her best chance. I have 2 kids that did this and one got in and the other got over the disappointment and found an amazing school that is probably a better fit. Both of my kids had a B or 2. It is in the overall package. Make Yale see her love for the school and why she would be a great addition to their class. But also know that Yale overenrolled this year. Meaning their yield was higher than they expected so that may affect class size.
We don’t know enough about the D’s profile (or why she loves Y and B) to determine if “little ivies” are a stretch or not. So in the absence of facts- we’re just trying to suggest schools which are statistically easier to get admitted to.
Yes!! These are not safety schools for anyone either. Suggesting Wesleyan, Vassar, etc. as an alternative to Brown, Yale. Hmm. According to Scoir for my kid’s private school that sends quite a few to elites, no one with less than a 3.9-ish has ever gotten in to Wes or Vassar. (ETA one person with a 3.89 was admitted to Wes)
Depending on the applicant’s profile (ie for “average excellent” student; 3.8+ and 34+ACT with lots of rigor but without state championships etc) those schools could indeed be, and frequently are backups, for Yale and Brown. The advice you are getting re GPAs for those schools seems not in line with those schools’ reported average GPAs, assuming a somewhat normalized distribution of admitted students in EDII.