Yale is Imploding over a Halloween Email

Parents Forum
521

@HarvestMoon1

It’s your truncated timeline that’s misleading. The discussion doesn’t start with her engaging him. By that point, people are already walking away because they’ve tried and failed to get him to see their POV. They’ve listened while he’s expressed his, one girl points out that she’s already attended one event where he’s presented it and plans on attending another, but right now they’re not looking for another debate – they want something different – an apology (in her words) or some assurance that he’s not just dismissing their opinions (which is what the speaker before her seems to want).

FWIW, I stand by defending himself (see comments re forgetting names, previous stances on this issue, classes/work show I’m on your side) as a fair characterization of his behavior, but even if his goal is just to express his opinion, it’s a variation on the same theme. He isn’t behaving like someone who wants to listen or learn or even to persuade. He wants to assert his position. He’s had/takes that opportunity, the students start by listening (even though they are there for a different reason – they’re chalking when he approaches them, from what I’ve read) and it’s only when it’s clear that it’s just the same old same old, that they, in different ways, give up on the conversation.

522

@exacademic - it is his right to assert his position. And he certainly is under no obligation to apologize for it.

523

But if the only acceptable result to the students is a mea culpa on NC’s part, and he is simply asking for time to think about whether or not he wants to apologize (which is his response), how could this be resolved? He could give the non-apology of saying he is sorry if his opinion hurt their feelings, but that would result in the student’s saying he was not sincere. He seems to be saying that their interpretation is wrong and he has nothing to apologize for. The students seem unwilling to accept that.

Alh: I honestly don’t get why it matters who recorded this? In an open area, there is usually no expectation of privacy is there?

524

I am always grateful for video. Sheds a lot of light on situations that would otherwise be unavailable.

525

@gettingsschooled,
Perhaps I am in the minority, but as one who does not have a pinterest account, and does not want to open one purely for the sake of seeing the list of “no-no” costumes (and am guessing some Yalies might feel the same way), is there another way to see this “list”?

526

I don’t get it. What kind of HUGE difference?

Is this like the Missouri incidents where the students accosted certain journalists?

527

That may be but EC has the responsibility to maintain welcoming atmosphere of all her residents. What was her students frustration? That the original email was condescending? Aren’t colleges often condescending? Doesn’t it look arrogant that the Christakis make it about free speech when all students are asking for is a safe place to have the said free speech?

528

If I am understanding correctly,

Silliman students have become a topic of national conversation and are being help up to scorn and ridicule because of video posted by a guest of their college. They did not thrust themselves into the limelight.

As far as I can tell, we would need no light shed on this particular situation if the video had never been posted. How exactly did this all get out into the media? Why?

529

The student’s blowup is a bit convenient if you want to brush off their allegations, too. They misbehaved, we won’t listen to misbehaving kids.

530

Or sometimes things are really offensive although we are used to it. Just look back how many jokes that we used to think funny sound offensive these days knowing how the receiving end felt.

531

jym626.

You’re the one who needs to read more carefully. The actual quote is:

The later part was the post which said "Base residents WERE instructed not to wear costumes of “such a nature and them”. The “were” part means its much more likely those instructions were issued prior to Halloween and the soldier’s ill-advised decision to disobey those instructions.

This is further confirmed in this article:

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2015/11/02/soldier-under-investigation-suicide-bomber-costume-fort-bragg/75033798/

where it stated in that prior post "such get-ups weren’t permitted on the installation. " and the incident and soldier is being investigated for this incident.

532

Other Yale students, males…

533

@HarvestMoon1

Who said NC didn’t have a right to express his opinion? Sure he did. But he did so in ways that left those students even less convinced of the importance of freedom of expression. And in a way that, quite predictably, escalated conflict. You may have the right to be a jerk, but it doesn’t make you any less of a jerk.

534

Cobrat-
Read the caption under the photo of the first article you linked. Here it is:

[quote]
Residents of Fort Bragg were instructed not to wear costumes of ‘such a nature and theme’ after the suicide bomber costume incident./quote

That is an assumption. The posts on Ft. Bragg’s website have been taken down, so there is no way to know when the commander commented about costumes. That said, if the instructions were given prior to the incident, the soldier would likely have been in deep trouble for disobeying an order from the commanding officer.

Please, don’t make any potentially disparaging comments about the military on veteran’s day (not sayi8ng you did- asking you not to)

535

And reiterate, I don’t agree with comportment of the student and her exchange with master. However, it does not take away from the from core of the issue, and warrant then just walking away and punishing her for bad public behavior. If you 6 kid gets a really bad bloody stub toe, and yells" fix my effing toe, now!!", do you then say, “too bad I don’t like your tone and language, lump it you little turd”. No, you attend to it, and then have a conversation about a more effective way to ask for assistance.

536

In what way did he leave the students less convinced of the importance of freedom of speech? The students were certainly exercising their rights in that regard.

537

@JustOneDad - The biggest difference between the Missouri and Yale incidents is that UM is public space while Yale is private. One could make the argument that Lukianoff should not have been filming on private property.

Here is a transcript of the conversation from Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3s5wz2/yale_administrators_responds_to_safe_space_hands/

Professor: I’ve said I’m sorry for causing you pain.

Student 1: That is different.

Prof: That is different. That is different, in fact. That’s different than the statement that I’m sorry for what I said. There’s a big difference between the two, guys. The fact-

Student 1: Do you fundamentally stand behind what she said?

Prof: I stand behind free speech; yes, I do.

Student 2: Well then that sorry doesn’t mean anything.

Student 3: Even when it’s offensive?

Prof (addressing Stud 3): Even when it’s offensive. Especially if it’s offensive. Even if-

Stud 3: Even when it denigrates me?

Prof: Even when it denigrates you, even though I don’t agree with the content of the speech. I have the same objections to the speech that you do. The same ones.

Stud 2 (interrupting): But it doesn’t submit(?) to you-

Stud 1 (interrupting): But what about the swastika-

Prof (cont’d): But, I defend the right for people to speak their mind.

Stud 3: So when the IAC(?) sends out an email saying…

Prof: So who gets to decide what’s offensive? Who gets to decide guys?

Stud 2: When it hurts me!

Stud 1: When it’s offensive to me!

Prof: What if everybody says, “I’m hurt”? Does that mean everyone else has to stop speaking?

Student 4: But that’s not what was happening!

Stud 1: No! Because you don’t- No, but you don’t under-

Prof: Hold on. So I agree with the content of your speech. I am as against racism as you are. I am as against social inequality as you are. I have spent my life addressing these issues, even some of the students in my class can speak out to this, but that is different than the freedom of speech. The right to defend people to say whatever they want including you! Including your right to write what you want and speak to me; which I will also defend.

Stud 3: Th-The IAC

Girl to the camera: Joana(?), just ask him when he apologized. This is all interesting(?).

Prof: And one more thing, when I was at other institutions, I have defended people with your views against tremendous opposition. People with your views that the administration tried to ferret out and expel.

Prof: I will defend you to say whatever you want, anywhere you want. Do you understand? Except to disrupt a classroom where someone is trying to teach students; which is the Yale policy by the way.

Stud 3: So we’re coming up with new “excepts” now. Why don’t excepts-

Stud 1: But I don’t-

Prof: No, the one exception is because other people have rights to, not just you.

538

And a transcript of the third video. The students in this video are different from the students in the prior videos:

Professor: -exception is because other people have rights too, not just you.

Student 1: Walk away, everyone. Walk away.
[many voices at once]

Student 2: How about we go back to you inappropriately using malicious … Master … to create an unsafe space here for all Sil-

Prof: I deny-

Stud 2: Be quiet! for all Silliman students. Do you understand that? As your position as Master it is your job to create a place of comfort and home for the students that live in Silliman.

Prof: I hear you.

Stud 2: You have not done that. By sending that email, that goes against your position as Master. Do you understand that? Then stop- st-

Prof: No, I don’t agree with that.

Stud 2: then, then why the fuck did you accept the position?!

Prof: Because I didn-

Stud 2: Who the fuck hired you?!

Prof: I have a different vision than you.

Stud 2: You should step down! If that is what you think about being a Sil Master then you should step down! It is not about creating an intellectual space, it is not! Do you understand that?! It is about creating a home here! You are not doing that!

Student 3: You’re supposed to be our advocate!

Stud 2: You’re going against that! This ju- You should be at their event last night and you would hear Anne Froco(?) say that she didn’t know how to create a safe place for the freshmen at Silliman. How do you explain that?! These freshmen come here and they think this is what Yale is?! Do you hear that? They’re going to leave, they are going to transfer because you are a poor steward of this community!

Student 4: Retweet!

Stud 2: You should not sleep at night!

Student 5: Yo, we out. We out.

Stud 2: You are disgusting!

539

No, the students were asking for a safe place to exercise their right. NC called dressing up in any way anyone wants is part of freedom of speech. If anyone finds it intimidating, that’s just too bad, nothing more. To me, intimidation is not part of freedom of speech. Calling it that degrades freedom of speech. I don’t understand why he is making this to be about freedom of speech. Students are asking for a safe place free from intimidation and the masters have the responsibility to provide it.

540

It may be unfortunate that someone took video and posted it, but a similar thing happened to a professor and another administrator at Missouri who are seen trying to get a student journalist to stop taking pictures. If the Yale professor had lost his cool and screamed at the students would it have been appropriate for the media to report that? Unfortunately, she behaved poorly and was “caught”.

It certainly doesn’t seem like Yale is walking away and saying that because this young woman lost it, the students were wrong. They are at least reportedly responding. And NC himself reportedly communicated that this woman should not be judged on a snippet of a video (but of course she is going to be). Most seem to be saying the students may have valid points, but that doesn’t mean her response was appropriate.