<p>
Again, half of the students will be below average and the Yale average (per some earlier post) is 3.55</p>
<p>
True. Enthusiastic parents ‘often’ confuse application with acceptance. ;-)</p>
<p>*However, on the other hand, if this student’s stats aren’t high for Yale, I’d be concerned that the student’s resulting GPA at Yale might end up being lower than a 3.5…since the classes will be filled with stronger students. </p>
<p>=========</p>
<p>Again, half of the students will be below average and the Yale average (per some earlier post) is 3.55</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>I think you misunderstand. </p>
<p>I’m talking about the stats as an incoming frosh. This student has a high GPA and a 32 ACT. Altho that ACT is good, it’s at the lower 25% mark for Yale. It’s very likely that the pre-med classmates will be much stronger students, hence the potential for a lower GPA if the school weeds for pre-med pre-reqs.</p>
<p>mom2collegekids~</p>
<p>I should have just PM’d you this question before posting! 
Anyway, you are correct that we are waiting on Yale. And you know what the State Flagship is. And it is not tOSU.</p>
<p>As far as financial aid, we met with Yale FA and have a very good idea what the cost will be (need-based aid). And we know what the State Flagship will cost (merit-based aid). And it is comparable.</p>
<p>You are correct in saying that being at the bottom of the stat range at Yale vs. the top at State Flagship is not good. <strong>This is THE MAJOR concern</strong> Along with weeding for pre-med pre-reqs.</p>
<p>I know this all may be moot but we are trying to figure this all out now so my daughter can “emotionally commit” to the school she will be going to.
She just wants to decide and be done with it. And if that means eliminating schools before even hearing of the admission decision, then so be it.
We have family connections to Yale and you know the situation with the State Flagship (we discussed via PM).</p>
<p>Thanks again for all of your help!</p>
<p>And thank you to everyone else too! :)</p>
<p>P.S. Before everyone jumps in now and says the acceptance rate to Yale is so low, chance of getting in is nil, etc…we know that. By no means did we “confuse application with acceptance”. (col2cal). I simply asked for opinions. Also, this situation could apply to many more kids than mine and this thread could be helpful to them as well.</p>
<p>lol…I really didn’t think you were talking about another state’s flagship. I thought you were talking about your own…tOSU. :)</p>
<p>*You are correct in saying that being at the bottom of the stat range at Yale vs. the top at State Flagship is not good. <strong>This is THE MAJOR concern</strong> Along with weeding for pre-med pre-reqs.
*</p>
<p>Anyway…that’s always my concern when kids who want pre-med and end up at tippy top schools when their stats are “low” for these schools (ha ha, cuz their stats are high for elsewhere ).</p>
<p>My son has straight A’s at his flagship (he’s a junior and applying to SOMs this summer). I don’t know if he’d have all A’s at an elite (especially in pre-med pre-reqs), simply because there are more super-intense-gunner-type students at those schools. </p>
<p>When I look at the stats of these kids who’ve been accepted to these elites, they barely sound human…their resumes are out of this world. My kid, while very smart, is just a well-rounded kid who likes to joke around, play pick-up basketball games, and has a beer pong table. ;)</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong; pre-med pre-reqs weren’t a cakewalk for my son at his flagship (that school weeds as well), but he never felt that he couldn’t get an A if he worked hard and studied. In other words, he felt more in control of his GPA-destiny at his flagship. Instead of everyone in the class possessing perfect SATs, his pre-reqs and eng’g classes have kids mostly in the ACT 30-34 range who didn’t win Intel or Siemens or what-have-you. </p>
<p>*As far as financial aid, we met with Yale FA and have a very good idea what the cost will be (need-based aid). And we know what the State Flagship will cost (merit-based aid). And it is comparable.
*</p>
<p>Ahh…you got a pre-read. Good. That makes sense! </p>
<p>In the end, your D has to evaluate how strong of a science student she is and if she feels that she could strongly compete with the type of students who will dominate those pre-med pre-reqs at Yale.</p>
<p>Kristin, I did go through the admission process many years ago. Even though I sit in the committee, I am too senior to evaluate individual application now. School tier is one big factor in considering admission. This is not only applied to medical school admissions, but also to residency match rankings. I revised my statement for GPA 3.8 being below most of the top 20-30 medical schools median GPA, instead of most medical schools. You can reference MSAR if you doubt it. If my memory did not fail me, our school has a median GPA >3.8 for at least a decade.</p>
<p>School tier is one big factor in considering admission. This is not only applied to medical school admissions, but also to residency match rankings.</p>
<p>Can you further explain. I can see that those who come from the top 20 schools might have some bump when compared to those coming from schools ranked #75 (when stats are rather similar)</p>
<p>Further, I can see how there could be some bump between those who come from schools in the 40-60 range and those who come from 3rd/4th tier schools. </p>
<p>But would there be much distinction given to those who went to - say a school ranked #50 and one ranked #80? If so, why? the differences in ranking wouldn’t be that much academic-related, since only 40% of ranking has to do with academics.</p>
<p>but also to residency match rankings</p>
<p>??? Are you saying that undergrad rankings come into play for residency matches? I find that hard to believe.</p>
<p>
You are scaring me. According to AAMC “MCAT Scores and GPAs for Matrculants to U.S. Medical Schools by State of Legal Residence, 2011”, the mean GPAs of matriculants are mostly 3.65, maybe some 3.7s, for many states including NY, MA, PA, OH, … This is the State average, including high ranked privates and state schools. Looks like I should expect my S to have a realistic chance in state schools? His gpa is certainly not above the median at your school. although he has 3+ yrs of research with 3 abstracts and publications so far with a couple more coming and a good number of hrs of clinical experiences, his gpa is making me lower my expectations a lot.</p>
<p>Mom2collegekids:</p>
<p>There is a limit on what I can disclose in this website. However, I can assure you that the top tier school list we try to recruit from includes mostly top private schools, even though the list has been adjusted periodically. The list includes no more than 5-6 schools. I am not trying to spread stereotype here: We found that the bulk of top applicants comes from those schools. The applicants outside the top tier do not make a lot of differences, regardless private or public.</p>
<p>For resident match list ranking, undergraduate is not a factor, but medical school is. Since many top medical schools use P/F system, USMLE step 1 score (for threshold purpose), publication, school reputation and personality (or motivation) become the main factors, assuming interview scores are good. However, a strong reference can override a poor score sometimes.</p>
<p>Col2Cal:</p>
<p>You appear to conflate average and median here. Please reference individual school, not the mean GPA for the entire state.</p>
<p>
the source i looked at only cites mean not median. wish i had access to the data of individual schools. do you kow where i can find the school specific data?.</p>
<p>However, I can assure you that the top tier school list we try to recruit from includes mostly top private schools, even though the list has been adjusted periodically.* The list includes no more than 5-6 schools.** *</p>
<p>I’m starting to doubt that you are what you say you are…5-6 schools? lol </p>
<p>Let’s see…</p>
<p>H
Y
P
MIT
Columbia
Dart
UPenn
Cornell
Brown
S
Amhearst
Williams
Swat
UChicago
Northwestern
Duke
Vandy
Rice
WashU
JHU</p>
<p>Which of the above don’t make the list of 5-6?</p>
<p>col2cal: US News and Report publishes the data of individual schools each year. CCers posted in the past that its information is more useful than that reported by MSAR. THis is because it is about the matriculated students, not about the accepted students.</p>
<p>For the data reported by MSAR, too many medical schools (among the top 20-30 ones) have almost the identical GPA and MCAT, because of many cross-admits among these schools. (The yield to the top medical schools could be between 30 to 40 because of the cross-admits, unless they play the trick of pulling as many students individually by phone/emails during the wait list cycle, instead of running the risk of losing a student to another top medical school in the end.)</p>
<p>
This is probably correct for most unhooked students applying to these top 20-30 medical schools.</p>
<p>I notice that, even for a student from a top tier college, (s)he most likely needs the grades around that range (and comparable MCAT), otherwise his/het stats could become his/her liability which then requires remedies in other areas. This is mainly because the class at most medical schools, including the top ones, is not large, and there are still quite many students with high stats, no matter which college we talk about.</p>
<p>For these medical schools, they could easily fill their whole class with students with very high stats if they want to – they usually do not want to do so, therefore often some high stats applicants fall through the crack every year just because of some perceived weakness in other area (e.g., lack of “likable” personality) or even just a bad luck.</p>
<p>mom2kc: BDM once said something similar to what underachiever said here. But his number is likely slight less than 10 rather than 5 or 6, if I remember it correctly.</p>
<p>I am no expert, but if I could make a guess (assuming that BDM and underachiever have some good points), my list may be:</p>
<p>H
Y
P
S
Amhearst
Williams
Duke
WashU
JHU</p>
<p>For medical schools in each region, they may have different bias.</p>
<p>I skip “M” because I think their more homogeneous student body may hurt them to some extent. (Too many of their kids are from the similar background. An analogy here: an orchestra only needs so many oboe players each year. However, if you are an oboe play from another college, you will also be at a disadvantage so it is not that the college itself that makes this difference.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is what I recall BDM said as well. I don’t remember him ever naming the schools.</p>
<p>^ He did not, as he is smarter than me to leave it like that.</p>
<p>It is very politically incorrect for me to name these schools specifically. My bad! It is often the case that everybody loves his/her own school, as it should be. I should emphasize that many schools not in this list are also very good schools, like the school in a college town not far from the Great Lakes which is often referred to as a “public ivy” – I bet entomom and her D would agree at this :)</p>
<p>
mcat2, I am still trying to find that source. If you have link, please post. All I have so far is this one:
<a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/161700/data/table21.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/161700/data/table21.pdf</a></p>
<p>BTW, how credible is this green-blue-red rating when you give MCAT and gpa?
[Medical</a> School Admissions Information - Planning to get into Medical School](<a href=“http://www.studentdoc.com/medical-school-admissions.html]Medical”>Medical School Admissions Information - StudentDoc)</p>
<p>*H
Y
P
MIT
Columbia
Dart
UPenn
Cornell
Brown
S
Amhearst
Williams
Swat
UChicago
Northwestern
Duke
Vandy
Rice
WashU
JHU
*</p>
<p>*I am no expert, but if I could make a guess (assuming that BDM and underachiever have some good points), my list may be:</p>
<p>H
Y
P
S
Amhearst
Williams
Duke
WashU
JHU</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>I know that you’re just guessing, but I find it hard to believe that there’s a SOM that limits its students to coming from 6-10 undergrads. </p>
<p>If your list were correct, then Columbia, UChicago, Swat, etc students are SOL? I find that hard to believe (not to mention the grads from Notre Dame, Georgetown, Tufts, UVA, Berkeley, etc).</p>
<p>From a process of elimination, we should be able to figure out which ultra-exclusive SOM this supposedly is. </p>
<p>Most of us know kids from “other undergrads” that have gotten into H, Y, and other elite med schools. So, which is the SOM that we personally don’t know of any admitted students from the non “super-elite 6-10”???</p>
<p>I can’t think of ANY.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not sure I concur with that assumption. The local UCs are chock-full of gunners (of the worst kind). My kids have not experienced that level of intensity at the private colleges that they attended. What they have found is a very collegial atmosphere, and a ton of on-campus resources for special studies, research, etc.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Good reason to be concerned. Yes, that 3.6 is a real number, but it is the average, also includes all type of hooked candidates: D1 athletes, Olympians, URMs, post-bacs (who went from a 3.3 undergrad to a 4.0 post-undergrad); poets; former homeless, etc.</p>
<p>For example, on the surface, Georgetown looks like a rather low gpa for its ‘peer’ group. But dig deeper and you’ll find that up to 1/3rd of the some med classes arises from Georgetown’s very rigorous post-bac program. Thus, for the unhooked college senior, Georgetown’s gpa is much, much higher than that shown on msar.</p>
<p>*local UCs are chock-full of gunners (of the worst kind). </p>
<p>My kids have not experienced that level of intensity at the private colleges that they attended. *</p>
<p>We noticed intensity at Vandy, NU, WashU and some ivies…but I wouldn’t describe it as vicious or the “worse kind”…just competitive because of the level of students there. While I know that some of the top schools give out a lot of A’s (grade inflation), if that doesn’t happen in the pre-med pre-reqs, then competition for those A’s will likely occur…even if not vicious. </p>
<p>At your kids’ privates, were A’s limited for pre-med pre-reqs? or did grade inflation exist in those classes as well?</p>
<p>That said, I agree that UCLA and Cal are loaded with gunners of the worse kind…and even some at UCSD. I have a niece who was blind-sided and sabotaged at UCSD. 
</p>
<p>When you have a situation where only about 50% of UC pre-meds are accepted to med school, it’s going to create a rather “dog eat dog” atmosphere.</p>
<p>
The second link I gave above has average GPA 3.80 for Georgetown. My expectation for s1 will be then a state school as his primary goal, and try throw a dart at some top schools to see if it sticks…i think he has good ecs and research at least.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think the mean GPA for most Ivies are 3.50 or higher. I suspect even MIT will have mean GPA 3.5 or so. I know caltech’s median gpa is 3.5. Most public universities have mean gpa closer to 3.0 than to 3.5. I saw it somewhere .</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Science grades are capped everywhere, with perhaps the exception (that proves the rule?) being Brown. :)</p>
<p>The only difference is whether the curve (mean) is a C+ or a B+ or somewhere in between. (A- at Brown) </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Just Brown (3.6) and Yale (3.5+). The others are 3.3-3.5, including H.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Correct. Publics award D’s and F’s which are unheard of at many private colleges. Stanford banned F’s years ago. It is impossible to flunk out of S.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It definitely does create atmosphere, which is too bad, bcos a lot of it is self-inflicted by the poor campus advising. I’ve seen 3.6 UC students apply to nothing but top 20 med schools, including the three instaters (SF, LA and SD). I’ve seen UC kids with a 3.8 but <9 VR score apply to top 20 schools exclusively. Guaranteed fail. Perhaps some advising would suggest more appropriate choices.</p>
<p>
col2cal, You need to pay for the access to the info provided by US News and Report. You can buy it from a bookstore, or buy its online access. The price is about the same. I forgot the details as we bought it almost 2 years ago, when DS needed to find a list of schools to apply to.</p>
<p>
This reminds me of a story BDM once told us: One of the kids got a 30 on MCAT at some UC or some other state university and his friends and he immediately went out to “celebrate” and almost declared “mission accomplished”, while another of his friends at Duke got the similar score and immediately thought of retaking and most of his frends felt sorry for him.</p>
<p>When DS was home during winter break, I asked him whether he thought his peer students at his medical school tend to be more competitive academically than his premed peers at his UG. His reply surprised me: “They are about the same.” But he did add that he did not know many premeds at his UG and those few he was close to happened to go to a top 10. (In his circle: one to H, one to Y, one to UCSF, one to C, one, in another year, to J, and one to UCLA. These were what I heard of but I do not know details.)</p>