<p>ske, no offense to you but you have not really provided any verifiable information to support your claims. When the wiki data shows something counter to your beliefs, you can't simply dismiss it by saying "That Yalies are much more willing to spend time editing these amateurish articles...". </p>
<p>I'm especially surprised, because in the past, you've been so willing to provide data to support your claims.</p>
<p>I felt compelled to write my first post ever (whoo?) to point out that JFK + Teddy/Bobby Kennedy make up three senators, three plus three equals six, and the "magic number" ske was trying to refute was in fact nine. Of course, my more forceful point (about the lack of senators in the 17th century) was already discussed (thanks, George!), but merits mention again for eloquently demonstrating the lack of articulation present in ske's argument (tirade?). Perhaps you were spending your time doing "more worthwhile things" than proofreading?</p>
<p>Since it's George S who's claiming that Yale has far more influence in American politics than Harvard, the burden of proof is on him, not on me.</p>
<p>The Wiki "data", because it's not even close to complete, does not show anything counter to anything. It cannot even be called "data".</p>
<p>Well, I apologize for that slip. But my point remains that George's "data" showing single digit numbers for Harvard senators, governors, and supreme court justices, probably representing anywhere between 20 fold to 50 fold underrepresentation, are so clearly absurd that they invite ridicule.</p>
<p>Another one of my point, that Harvard College graduates are the largest contingent at Harvard graduate schools, is not something you can argue with. At Harvard Medical School, they have a term called "Preparation H", which refers to someone who went through Harvard College -> Harvard Medical School -> Harvard Internship/Residency -> HMS professor. There are A LOT of them around.
When I ask them why they stayed at one place, they usually tell me that it's not because they love Boston so much or because of their loyalty to Harvard, but simply that at each step along the way, they went for the #1, and the #1 was Harvard.</p>
<p>Yale has produced four of the past six U.S. Presidents. Yale has produced a candidate for the White House in every U.S. national election since 1972. Look at who ran for the nomination in the past few elections and the ones planning to run in 2008. I don't think anything more needs to be said, except that it's not surprising that Yale has been the most selective college in the United States for two of the past three years.</p>
<p>Both of your claims are dishonest. Yale college did not "produce" Bill Clinton any more than Harvard College "produced" George Bush .... each of which earned graduate degrees, from the Law Schoiol and Business School rrespectively..</p>
<p>And Yale is not more "selective" as measured by USNews. It never has been.... EVER.</p>
<p>Its SAT median scores are lower, its yield rate is far, far lower, and it gets absolutely KILLED by Harvard with cross-admits, as it always has - for generations.</p>
<p>When top students have a choice, they overwhelmingly choose Harvard over Yale and every other elite as well: in consequence, Harvard is more "selective." Its not even <em>close</em>.</p>
<p>Looking at the figures - such as the % of students who are NMSC-sponsored National Merit Scholars, the admissions rate, applicants per spot, or the fact that Yale students received 4 Marshall Scholarships and 3 Rhodes Scholarships this year (while no other Ivy received more than 2 Marshalls or more than one Rhodes) - most people would respectfully submit that Yale is significantly more selective. </p>
<p>It's really a question of McDonald's Filet-O-Fish versus Nobu's $105 prix-fixe. McDonald's is larger, easier to get into, and has a bigger sign, but Nobu is of much higher quality despite its significantly smaller size. Because of differences like these you really can't compare them in the way that you are trying to. The vast majority of the people going for a Filet-O-Fish just don't even look at going to Nobu, and vice versa.</p>
<p>And regardless of this debate, the political figures I cited are still staggering.</p>
<p>Off the top of my head, I can think of Harvard College grads JFK, RFK, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Henry Cabot Lodge, Henry Cabot Lodge Jr.</p>
<p>A quick search of the colleges attended by the Senators of the 109th Congress (this one) reveals that Jeff Bingaman (New Mexico), David Vitter (Louisiana), Chuck Schumer (New York), John D. Rockefeller IV (West Virginia) also went to Harvard undergrad. (<a href="http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL33081.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL33081.pdf</a>)</p>
<p>So that's at least 10 (already over the Wiki number). And that's also just the famous ones that I can remember (I should've known Chuck Schumer, darn it!) and those that are there now. Forget the more famous 19th century ones, as well as the unmemorable 19th and 20th ones. While I certainly wouldn't say the number is "scores" larger than that reported, as Ske would, I'd say that it is probably a couple times larger than what the Wiki article says. Especially if you remember that the Senate used to be known as "The Millionaire's Club" and was basically even more of an old boy's club than it is now - and old boys come from HYP.</p>
<p>Now I'd still argue that Yale is the place to go for politics - it's certainly one of the reasons I'm going. I mean, it's almost a "who's who" list in today's government. Bush and Kerry, sure, but Cheney, Lieberman, Dean - all Yale College (well - Cheney went for a while. Dum-dum.). Yale basically founded the CIA. The University has graduated 523 members of Congress, 55 Cabinet Secretaries, and 18 Supreme Court Justices (and 5 Presidents). But I do think the wiki stats unfairly underestimate Harvard's importance in the government.</p>
<p>Best,
DMW</p>
<p>P.S. Oh, and while I would kill to get into either HLS or YLS, I would like to say that if we are to use cross-admit rates as the ultimate sign of selectivity, Yale wins on a level comparable to or greater than Harvard College over Yale college. On an anecdotal level, my boss just told me that another man who had worked in my office was going to YLS over HLS. Shortly after he told his Harvard admissions officer this, the Dean of HLS called him and for 35 minutes tried to convince him that he was making a terrible mistake and to cajole him into going to Harvard. He still picked Yale. That being said, a cousin of mine went to HLS and said it was a great mental exercise that he'd recommend to anyone.</p>
<p>Evening,</p>
<p>I was referred to this thread (and this website in general) some moments ago by a friend. He thought I'd like this topic, since I routinely discussed with him my opinion on this matter, namely that graduating political leaders is essentially part and parcel of a Yale education. I'm not a fan of statistics in general and I'm not going to dig up information on the quantity of graduates who end up as congressmen etc., especially since in the scheme of 200+ years it's nigh impossible to determine exactly where all these people were educated ... but I will say this:</p>
<p>I am extremely politically interested and have found that there is an incredible abundance of likeminded students here. Furthermore, so many of them are prime candidates for political office based on such features as charisma and clear, concise oratory (even in the guise of normal conversation.) I know that this is the unsubstantiable Internet-broadcasted opinion of a Yalie, but I'm telling you, nay, guaranteeing, that one of my extended suitemates will end up a prominent politician. He's seeking that career path, interning in that career path, dominating poli sci courses ... is clean-cut, smooth-talking, even-keeled ... and there are many others EXACTLY like him.</p>
<p>Note that my "evidence" is purely anecdotal. And I have no idea if there are this many students in this mold elsewhere. Quite possibly there are. But I've never encountered them before ... people for whom political discourse is more important than the next episode of 24 (or almost that), people who live and breathe C-SPAN and have the social grace and magnetism to discuss and be heard. Perhaps Yale's stronghold of political leadership is a consequence of the fact that it attracts students like this. That is my best guess. And yes, being the alma mater for blue-blooded multigenerational legacies like the Bush family + Skull & Bones certainly do help...</p>
<p>Also, there's been some talk on selectivity of admissions in this thread... I'm curious: what are the standard measures of selectivity (whatever the newspaper rankings et al use.) Is it admissions percentage? How many students out of the admitted students decide to attend? Median SAT scores as mentioned elsewhere in this thread seem intuitively bad measures of selectivity after a certain threshold is reached (though I can't say what that threshold is, hearsay indicates 1400-1450). </p>
<p>I'm a rising sophomore, '09, at Yale, and have heard from a (biased) friend who works at the office of admissions that this year Yale was the most selective college in our nation's history. Is this possibly true? Is this friend excluding, as I presume he is, specialty schools like Juiliard or military academies? Though I myself am reasonably skeptical of how applicable selectivity is to actually choosing colleges (I applied to and was accepted at many schools perhaps more selective than Yale and found them to be less desirable for me. FWIW, this includes Harvard - not ALL Yale students are Harvard rejects, believe it or not.)</p>
<p>Lastly, back on topic, I'd like to mention that, unfortunately, since Barack Obama is not an alum of Yale, our political dominance is almost inconsequential. I'm only half-kidding. Besides being the best, that man is the future...</p>