<p>I guess the basic point I'm making is that each of these colleges has advantages and it really depends on what you're looking for, making debates about which one is the "best" in general essentially pointless. It is worth talking about the advantages and disadvantages of each to help people make their decision, but saying that school x is better because it has a higher selectivity/yield really doesn't help anyone.</p>
<p>svalbardlutefisk, the important thing u leave out is how incredibly similar these schools (HYP) are. In particular, if u saw just the class profiles of admitted students. u couldn't tell which was which. The cities differ somewhat, but the academic experience is a unity.</p>
<p>That's not true at all. There are great differences between the schools in the "academic experience," including the core curriculum, the way majors are structured, how "TA section" works, and so on.</p>
<p>I really don't see how Zephyr's point about Yale/Stanford SCEA affects my argument at all. My point is that students who apply to Harvard--no matter when they apply--may often prefer Harvard, but that's not evidence that all students, or even "the best students," prefer Harvard. There may be strategic reasons to apply SCEA to Stanford or Yale, or perhaps an admit at Stanford or Yale makes a prestige-hungry applicant more optimistic about success in Harvard RD. In any event, the issue here is self-selection. Statisticians generally don't take a self-selected sample as representative no matter how clear the data may appear--self-selection almost always introduces some kind of systematic bias. </p>
<p>Byerly would like us to believe that Yale, Princeton, Stanford are filled with students who wish with all their hearts that they could have gone to Harvard. Dream on!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Byerly would like us to believe that Yale, Princeton, Stanford are filled with students who wish with all their hearts that they could have gone to Harvard. Dream on!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You know, with the acceptance rates as low as they are nowadays, it's just as likely that Harvard may have students who "wish with all their hearts" that they could have gone to Yale, Princeton, or Stanford, but had to settle for Harvard because they had no other choice. Before you dismiss that notion, consider that (as a case study) Yale had a lower acceptance rate than Harvard for this past year, so it is more likely for a student to have been rejected by Yale and accepted by Harvard than vice versa.</p>
<p>The key word is Preference given choice. Lets say after all your EA/SCEA/RD strategy/planning, you have acceptance letters from more than one school. For the sake of this argument, lets consider you have three admissions, H, Y and P. The ** preference ** is Which school would you choose among the three - it doesnt really matter whether you got these multiple tickets from H (RD), P(RD), Y(SCEA) or H(SCEA) Y(RD), P(RD) ** or **H(RD),Y(RD), P(RD). For the above example, Princeton ED admits are excluded, because they have no choice, and I have no idea of the reasons behind their ED selections - it may well be due to their burning desires to attend their dream ED school or they know they have a better chance of using ED card to Princeton. </p>
<p>And we all know the winner thanks to Byerly :p</p>
<p>does anyone find it kind of ironic that byerly is the most aggressive in supporting his school than anyone else on this entire website? heaven forbid, is a harvard alum that insecure that he has to put down others to make himself feel good? there is not one person on the planet who would reject harvard as one of the top institutions in the world, yet byerly feels the need to drill it into the heads of everyone he comes in contact with. i would understand someone who would do that for an excellent but not well known school, but harvard? please. pathetic.</p>
<p>Nobody is putting any school "down."</p>
<p>The stats simply tell a fairly clear story about the academic pecking order which is fairly rigid at the top, "winner take all", as it has been described. These are all supurb schools. </p>
<p>And neither Stanford nor MIT can't be excluded from this discussion, since in recent times they have often been tougher "competitors" for cross admits than either Yale or Princeton. </p>
<p>The simple fact is that arguably small perceived differences lead to overwhelming preferences among those faced with a choice.</p>
<p>Byerly, thanks for posting that last link. It was a highly interesting read.</p>
<p>Byerly, you are too much. You used to cite the entire 52 page revealed preference study from Harvard's website, as you did here (<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=172263&page=2):%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=172263&page=2):</a></p>
<p>"No matter how slight the differences may be perceived to be, the result is an overwhelming preference among top students when offered a choice.</p>
<p>You used that Harvard link several times across CC. After I pointed out in a different thread that this survey reveals Yale is the #1 preference for students in the humanities, while Harvard is #3, it seems you've suddenly changed your link to the same revealed preference study, except this new link only has a document length of 45 pages. And conveniently the pages that aren't included are the ones that document student's preference for Yale in the humanities.</p>
<p>Byerly, I have no problem with you advocating for Harvard (albeit some problem with advocating so forcefully on the Yale boards. But this is a H v. Y v. P thread, so no problems in this particular case). But you should simply admit that you're doing just that, instead of masquerading behind some sort of facade of objectivity. You obviously want everyone to think Harvard is the best college in the country. And you know what? Maybe it is. But even if it isn't, it certainly isn't desperate enough so as to need someone to deliberately suppress information so that it can look still better. Your willful distortion of the facts only speaks to some sort of insecurity about Harvard, as if you need to prove to everyone that anyone who could go to Harvard but chooses elsewhere is making the definitively <em>wrong</em> choice. But really, Byerly, you don't need to do that - save the inferiority complexes for us Yalies.</p>
<p>Lying by omission, Byerly, is still lying. Shame.</p>
<p>Disappointedly,
DMW</p>
<p>so, whereas he once spammed the december 2005 version, he now cites instead the september 2004 version. it's possibly just an innocent mistake, but if not, it's a deplorable "tactic."</p>
<p>Don't be silly. I was the first to post <em>both</em> versions. The second is an extended remassage of the same data. Both remain on my list of links. Sorry for posting one rather than the other, and glad I didn't pull the wool over <em>your</em> sharp eyes, you smart little devil, you!</p>
<p>I'm still waiting for someone to respond to my argument about the self-selection of cross-admits--that's the problem here, and nobody's said anything about it. I myself don't think the cross-admit numbers say much about the quality of an institution since as someone pointed out the decision is made by a student who has no real idea what the experience of attending any of the schools will be like. But since that appears to be the main argument in Harvard's corner, I'd like somebody to really argue it.</p>
<p>Why aren't the opinions of thousands of applicants - faced with the <em>real</em> option - presumably following visits and much research, and with an understanding that $160-200 thousand of their parents' money is at stake, more valuable than yours?</p>
<p>This thread is <em>depressing</em> and so is any thread entitled "x vs y" when our letters are representing academic institutions. We need QUALIFIERS.</p>
<p>For instance, "Yale v. Princeton. v. Harvard in graduate mechanical engineering" OR "Yale v. Princeton v. Harvard with regards to diversity of student population" etc. The second one mentioned can at least be represented somewhat objectively by citing statistics and my first example is narrow enough to permit a certain amount of informed discussion, although the real winner in the x vs. y argument will depend on an individual student's preferences and not the shaky criteria described in this thread.</p>
<p>The simple truth is that it's all subjective. This is not a cop-out and this is a not a shallow debate tactic, so I preempt (probably unsuccessfully) any criticism in that vain. No, quite simply, this is fact. Students admitted to schools like HYP will likely have other strong choices and the best way they can make a decision is to visit each and see which has an atmosphere most conducive to their happiness.</p>
<p>The process can be tough and I do not deny that I suffered from a debilitating ambivalence in 2005 when making my own decision, but ultimately I chose the place at which I felt most comfortable. It was a question of atmosphere, not SAT ranges or per capita endowments or number of new tree plantings or debate rankings or what past cross-admits chose. Just atmosphere. You will know the right place if you make a sincere effort at visiting every institution you have the capability of visiting.</p>
<p>A past poster inquired as to why the choices of past cross-admits are not more important than the opinion of the student making the decision. This inquiry is ridiculous and epitomizes everything I dislike in the college admissions process. What's best for others is IRRELEVANT to the (hypothetical) me because as an 18ish-year-old admitted to the most excellent schools under discussion, surely after visiting I am mature enough to deduce what's best for me. </p>
<p>Not to personalize this, since the "me" in the above paragraph is supposed to be universal... but when I made my own choice last year, there were a number of excellent schools I had to turn down. One in particular was attracting a legion of "students like me" ... which is to say, competitive math students, people with whom I had attended symposia and summer camps and research sessions for years. I was undeterred, because I held steadfast the belief that the perceived difference in campus environment - one in which I felt infinitely happier immediately upon arrival - was what I should consider, and not where my on-paper peers were choosing. </p>
<p>I have no regrets. This sounds soapy but please make your own decisions and ignore others chose unless you individually feel that their decision is best for you.</p>
<p>And "Yale v. Princeton. v. Harvard" as indicated in the thread title has no real answer. Sorry! Anyone who thinks it does should not attend any of the three schools in question.</p>
<p>Look, nobody is suggesting that an applicant admitted to Harvard, Yale, Stanford or Princeton base his or her choce soley on the USNews rankings, the Revealed Preference rankings, or any other rankings. </p>
<p>Of course you shouldn't; and I doubt any of the top applicants in other classes over the past 25-50 years have, either.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it would be foolish not to consider the informed choices made by other "consumers" - similarly situated. Consumer reports ranks cars, and the differences can be great; this may persuade some people to buy Toyotas, but it doesn't dissuade a minority from buying *****-cans, regardless. Chances are, they didn't read the rankings!</p>
<p>We cannot know all the factors that influenced your predecessors; it may have been the desire to rub elbows with similarly talented students; it may have been based on the setting of the school and the perceived quality of life open to students because of that setting; we cannot know, exactly (although scientific surveys give some hints.)</p>
<p>But what is undeniable is that the overwhelming majority of those students <em>with a choice</em> opt for Harvard, and have done so for eons.</p>
<p>This is true today, and it was true in the past.</p>
<p>Okay, Byerly. Let's use the car example, as you said:</p>
<p>Let's compare an Audi and a Mercedes-Benz. The Audi is a better-made and better-running car, generally, yet people certainly recognize the Benz more, and most people, when offered a choice, will take the Benz.</p>
<p>Does that make the Benz, objectively, a better car? No.</p>
<p>Also, Byerly, can we have the percentage of the cross-admits choosing H over Y, or P, or S or any other school you might be inclined to give us data for? </p>
<p>Of course, a source too, please.</p>
<p>As it happens, buyers prefer the Mercedes, and it also has a higher resale value.</p>
<p>If I were you, I'd take a look at THIS:</p>
<p>I am not at liberty to give you precise numbers, which are confidential, but there are many articles and links from a variety of sources giving general estimates. I have posted these links many times.</p>
<p>The numbers vary remarkably little from year to year; 3/4 of common admits generally choose Harvard over its principal "competitors" - Stanford, MIT, Yale and Princeton. </p>
<p>Indeed, the sizeable yield rate difference between Harvard and these competitors is primarily due to Harvard's edge vs. the group with common admits.</p>