My D did very well on the act but her four best friends, all high gpa (92-94 with aps) kids, are struggling. A lot of schools are test optional now but I’m wondering if unhooked kids are really able to gain admission to top schools (bates, bowdoin, middlebury, wake, etc) without submitting test scores or if, as some have speculated, test optional is a way in for hooked candidates while allowing colleges to not report their stats.
so please reply below with your experience if your s/d didn’t submit scores.
I would disregard the statements and positions that there are sinister motives. They don’t exist. In fact, the policy at Bates and Bowdoin came out of the faculty decades ago.
What is true is if you don’t submit test scores all the emphasis is on transcripts, essays, special talents and demonstrated interest.
Admit rates are lower because there are very few situations where the rest of application can stand up to extra scrutiny.
And that makes total sense because the instances where the tests and transcript are not in synch are rare. This is what test optional policies are designed to find, the true aberration.
In the end the parent and student really need to comes to terms with whether that UW 3.8 is real or not. The admins will certainly know.
Ask me again on April 1st! So far, D is in at two EA LACs (both CsTCL) without submitting scores. She has a pretty good EC story (not a hook and not a ton of ECs) her GPA is good, 3.7ish UW with very high rigor and an explanation as to why it’s not better. So we will see… (Wow, look at all of the acronyms I piled in there! )
Schools like Middlebury and Bowdoin have very small acceptance rates so it is very hard to tell why a person did not get in. Most kids that apply are denied anyway. So scores or no scores chances are small.
For schools with acceptance rates that are more in the middle I think yes kids do get in by not submitting scores.
Wake would be in a different category than the other three you list - a bit easier to gain acceptance.
I suggest you ask your gc to look at the applicants to those schools and see if any got in without submitting scores. That will be telling. My D was accepted to a test optional school (not one of the ones you list) but she did submit scores which were at the high end of the mid 50. We did look at the naviance scattergarms from 2 high schools to get a feel for what they accept. It was almost uncanny how they were able to sniff out the kids (who did not submit) with scores below the mid 50 and either deny or wait list - even those w/ very good gpas.
Agree with @ScaredNJDad1, that without submitting scores to a highly selective school, everything else will be scrutinized and needs to look very, very, very strong.
@ScaredNJDad1 I’m not sure why you don’t think sinister motives don’t exist. Schools clearly try to game the us news ratings, test optional will increase number of applicants and allow schools to report higher standardized test scores.
@PNWedwonk I’d have thought by definition, the ctcl schools would be welcoming to kids that don’t submit scores.
@am9799 agreed, which is kinda the point of this thread, I was hoping to see if anyone here had a s/d accepted without submitting scores.
@wisteria100 It would be for the parents of my d’s friends to ask but I’m sure our guidance office won’t have a clue. I think what you describe as “sniffing out” is pretty straightforward, I’d guess anyone in the 25-50% range with a good gpa is going to submit.
Clearly the faculty at Bates did not see a drop in the quality of students in the classroom or they would not have voted to extend the school’s test-optional policy.
I have no doubt that some schools are looking at ways to raise the number of applications. In some cases this is a very good thing if those applications are coming from smart students capable of extremely high level academic work but with mediocre scores.
Adding-I just got back from dinner with an unhooked freshman at a test optional school. Lovely kid who seems to be doing quite well. I didn’t ask what her HS grades were like but she did mention she didn’t submit her scores. This was in the context of a “How did you end up there?” conversation.
There is a lot of thinking and research that suggests standardized tests penalize minority and poor students. So perhaps at the elite test optional schools, this means that for those not submitting scores, minorities and lower income kids would have the edge, while non minority and middle/upper class kids would be held to a higher standard
Whatever the intentions of the given school (stated or otherwise), kids will high test scores will likely submit them. Kids with lower scores will likely not submit them. When school reports its numbers, the scores of incoming classes will look better. In addition, you will get more applications which will improve you selectivity (assuming you still admit the same number of kids). And the school may well be taking the same kids they otherwise would take if they were requiring tests so there is no decline in incoming class quality.
@Sue22 “so the policies have broad appeal across ethnic groups”
makes sense, but the point of this thread is not whether the policy has broad appeal, it’s whether the policy actually helps students gain entry. I believe there have been studies showing that test optional has not resulted in a more diverse student body at many of the schools adopting the policy.
The comments from the column linked in your post are useful. Among them are this:
We should expect that if test-optional policies were being used to admit inferior [hooked] students that other measures of student quality, such as the graduation rate or peer ratings would be adversely affected. Since, as the USNWR comment above indicates, graduation rates are more heavily weighted than SAT/ACT scores, schools would be shooting themselves in the foot to throw out a method of student selection that would help them admit a higher quality class in a vain attempt to game the rankings.
I believe the original question you posted was whether regular kids without any special hooks are commonly admitted under test-optional policies, or whether these policies are simply a pretext to admit hooked kids the school wants without damaging their USNWR rankings. In answer to that question, my kids are both at a test-optional school. Lots of their friends were admitted as unhooked test-optional applicants. The kids are pretty open about not submitting tests. If you ask them why they chose the school the answer is often, in addition to “I loved it when I toured” or a similar answer, “I had a 4.0 but my test scores stunk.” It’s very possible that a greater proportion of URM’s, legacies, athletes and development cases are admitted as non-submitters than submitters. I don’t have those statistics and I don’t think anyone else here will be able to provide them. I can only say that I know lots of great unhooked kids who were admitted to these schools as non-submitters. I do think strong scores add to an application even if not submitting scores will not drag down an application to a school that’s committed to a test-optional policy.
There are many other ways to increase applications without the burden of test optional review. Bucknell, Colby and Swarthmore have shown recently you can create a surge of applications while reducing the workload on admissions by reducing or eliminating the application fee and/or the supplemental writing requirement. This is documented. Going test optional does not increase applications that much or for that long. The others do. In fact when Swarthmore watered down the writing requirement the number of applications surged by 50%. Boston College was receiving so many applications it reinstituted the writing requirement to control applications. So, test optional admissions is not so clever a way to manage the flow of applications in light of the alternatives.
It doesn’t have much impact on rankings either. The weighting for test scores is not large and the majority of candidates still submit scores. Even if there were a gain, admitting students not qualified to succeed could easily erode rankings in retention, graduation rates and peer opinion.
So when you think through all these issues, it is hard to believe that test optional policies can achieve what you say, especially in light of all the extra work that goes into test optional application review.
Also, even test optional schools are not test optional for everything. Some programs like nursing still require them. This doesn’t apply to the schools in question, though. Also, Merit Awards still require test submission.
To clarify, Middlebury- unlike Bates and Bowdoin- is not test “optional” but test “flexible”. An applicant can choose to submit 3 SAT2 subject tests in lieu of the SAT or ACT. I believe this is Colby’s testing policy as well.
Anecdotally, I know unhooked student that got in to Mt Hoyloke and Bates with no scores.
Bowdoin has a below 15% acceptance rate and it is a small school. Assume they really keep their word and consider unhooked students with no scores. The numbers are so small that it is hard to have anecdotes.
But I would guess the lack of a high profile or a very strong application (ECs, vision, presence in the school, whatever) will hurt you as much as the lack of scores.
Not surprising to see US News defend its rankings (and thus its $$). Need to argue against being game-able lest the rankings lose their perceived significance. Though discounting score increases only means a school needs to determine whether the increased scores resulting from going test optional is worth it. And sure the impact may be small but often times the differences between schools in the rankings is small.
Selective schools also presumably reject a number of kids who would do well at those schools. So it isn’t necessarily the case that accepting kids with a testing option system who would otherwise be rejected with a testing required one will lead a decrease in retention, graduation rates and peer opinion (for folks who dislike testing, going test optional may well increase peer opinion on a sub-conscious level).
Taking steps that result in significant increases in applications may well lead US News and other ranking services to make adjustments to eliminate the influence. Subtle changes are less likely to result in such adjustments. And again, you don’t need to make huge changes to have significant impacts on rankings.
Overall, I think schools take a holistic approaches to their admissions processes. They look at a number of factors that impact their rankings (as well as other aspects of how they operate). Make fine tuned adjustments as they move forward. More an art than science (even though much of the US News rankings are objective (or at least claim to be)).
I think the idea that schools are not gaming to the US News rankings or are making changes for the benefit of the students are naive. Even if the schools state otherwise. Do you expect them to say otherwise?
To the OP, I am sure kids are able to gain admission at elite schools who are test optional without submitting test scores. Though as the selectivity of the school increases, the chances likely decrease. Many elite schools (test required schools are well) are rejecting a lot of kids with very high scores who submit them. I say apply and see how it works out. But have other schools in mind (and that is true for any kid applying to college).
My daughter chose not to submit her scores, was unhooked, and was accepted to Bowdoin. I think the main factore that helped her was to apply ED and a good interview. She also is more artsy than the average Bowdoin applicant,which probably worked in her favor.
I’ve read that the best indicator of college performance is your transcript, not one test score on a single day. I’d have to say I agree with that in the real world examples I have seen. What not submitting does do it make the average ACT scores at a test optional school artificially inflated. I then look at the CDS for average incoming GPA.
I’m glad I found this thread. My D applied to George Washington University test optional. A few days ago GW started sending out “likely” admissions post cards. As the kids started posting on college confidential that they’d received these cards (and posted their stats) I noticed that not one of them applied test optional. All of the kids had SAT/ACT of 2100/32+. This is the most recent article on the GW test optional choice:
Why everybody is aiming at some high ranking colleges? They are ranked by others, they may not be a good match for a specific student at all. Why not research much deeper and see which school fits YOU, YOUR personality and wide range of interests, not somebody’s else. Frankly, D. did not check rankings when she applied to colleges at all. Instead, she focused on making sure that the college fits her as much as possible to minimize the stress of adjustments. It worked perfectly, she had experiences at her in-state public that far exceeded expectations of our family and her achievements there also went well beyond expected. Our long research paid off! As a cherry on top, she attended on full tuition Merit scholarship. The ranking was not on D’s criteria list at all while her criteria list was very long because of her very wide range of interests and various goals for the college years.For references, D. graduated #1 from private HS (#2 among privates in our state) and was pushed a lot by her GC to apply to Ive / Elite colleges, the push that she simply ignored.
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