<p>Owlice - Get over on the Parents of the Class of 2013 thread. We are planning a bus trip and need food. People are asking about you. (It’s a pretend trip). It involves George Clooney.</p>
<p>^^^ This is as fine a reason for riding for hundreds of miles on a bus as I can imagine.</p>
<p>fallenchemist, after all the tattoo threads lately, it seemed like a fair question.</p>
<p>CountingDown - I haven’t looked at the tattoo threads. But no, I don’t think it rises to the level of drug addiction or felonies. It is more at the level of picking a really useless major; that is, a less than great choice that is none-the-less personal, no matter who is paying.</p>
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<p>I will take this opportunity to point out your huge flaw in logical reasoning. In no way would the parent be dictating the choices of the student. The student could choose to study whatever he or she wants, pursue whatever career he or she wants, and major in whatever he or she wants. The parent would simply not be paying for lifestyle choices they do not want to support. There is no “right” decision here. I’m trying to understand why it would be unreasonable for a parent to decide that money invested in a particular course of action is not worth it, so to say. It’s the parent’s money funding the child’s life. Are you suggesting that the parent owes college tuition to the student, regardless of that student’s decisions? If not, where is the line drawn? I consider my college tuition a very generous gift, not a right. Clearly you do not.</p>
<p>I don’t know what your thinking process is, but clearly it defies any sort of logical sequencing. </p>
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<p>In other words, you would be okay with a parent putting contingencies on the money up front, since they made the decision before forking over the money? Or would you suggest that they throw the money into the wind and hope it ends up in the right place?</p>
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<p>You’re missing the entire point. </p>
<p>I am simply asking what the problem is with a parent attaching strings to college tuition. It’s a gift, and one that I imagine many parents would want to be used responsibly. Where is the problem with the parent wanting to ensure that THEIR money is used in a way with which THEY agree? I fail to see how this is such an abhorrent thought.</p>
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<p>I’ll excuse your hideously offensive and presumptuous statement. First of all, this problem is not widespread. Second, I’m not even saying I would make this decision myself.</p>
<p>So, your incoherent reasoning and nonexistent logic aside, what is the problem with a parent deciding that their money should be spent in a way they find useful?</p>
<p>Fascinating read, this thread. I find POIH to provide a useful foil, sort of like DadII (where did he go?), reminding us of the extreme point of view, a little voice some of us hold sometimes. </p>
<p>I don’t have a legal nor moral obligation to fund my kids’ education. As far as I can tell, that is not anyone’s point. But I can say, I don’t see their education as MY investment at all. They aren’t supporting me in old age, they are not my trophies to put on display or boost my ego. I get no return on them following my rules to a job I want them to do. </p>
<p>I simply support my children’s education, which I define very broadly as a life-altering, maturing, intellectual exploration where their minds will grow, they will develop confidence, they will become more in tune with their talents, passions and the career possibilities out there. </p>
<p>None of us can predict nor control the future, but I have immense confidence in my children to develop their talent and interests through college and find a way to be happy and financially independent some day. The last thing I want them to do is become an investment banker, or doctor, or lawyer…unless that would fulfill them. Simply put, when it comes to an occupation, I want them to find themselves, to contribute to the world in a way that is meaningful and fulfilling to them. That is about it. They need not a title, nor a big income, nor a secure future. And I fully expect they’ll follow a complex career of different occupaions…just like most adults now (only moreso for their generation). </p>
<p>I have many life experiences and a lifetime in academia and business, but I don’t for a minute think I can know the careers of the future. Like almost all adults, I also don’t know the vast majority of occupations out there NOW let alone 10 or 20 years from now…nor can I objectively judge what kinds of people are best for those occupations or whether my child has those particular traits or talents. I have three degrees and a PhD, I’ve been reading for almost 50 years, I’ve been consulting with a wide range of businesses for 20 years…but truly, what on earth do I really know about what my children should be majoring in!? </p>
<p>I trust my children have been raised to know themselves and trust their insights they uncover about themselves- what they like, what they are good at, what fuels them, what drains them, and what they might want to do with the rest of their lives (far more than I can possibly ever know!). Sure I can and will provide guidance as needed, answer questions when asked, make suggestions…but it’s their life and I’m not pompous enough to think I know better than my children. They are not me and my life is not their life. </p>
<p>College is a time for discovery of fields, and interests, and occupations. They will move forward, sometimes in a circle, and sometimes even (gasp!) two or three steps backwards…its not failure, it’s simply learning. But I have confidence, as they do, that they will uncover where they can best contribute in this complex, messy world and experience joy as they go along on the ride.</p>
<p>I agree with all of that; that is my exact viewpoint.</p>
<p>But that is not an answer to the question I am asking.</p>
<p>A family is middle-class and will be spending a quarter of their money on college tuition, a realistic scenario to be sure. My question is this: Would you understand their decision to pay for college only if the major is in line with what they consider to be a “worthy” education? Would you consider this a valid viewpoint?</p>
<p>I am still not seeing how 50k a year is something that the parents should have no say over once spent.</p>
<p>eddieodessa, I will get back there tomorrow (after a night of baking! 
)!! Where’s the bus trip, and can someone other than George Clooney be offered up for those of us who find him not as appealing as others do, please??</p>
<p>baelor, no one is suggesting that there are no parameters. Many parents require reasonable progress toward a degree, certain grades, and a limit to the amount of time one can expect to be funded. Some put a limit on the amount/year, and tell their offspring that if a more expensive school is desired, the offspring have to earn or borrow the difference. </p>
<p>I consider it stupid to say, “You must major in this, this, or that.” I’m sure some parents do that; doesn’t change my opinion that it’s a stupid thing to do. </p>
<p>Of all the positions I’ve had since graduating from college, only in ONE have I had a predecessor, the job I hold now, which has changed a great deal since I took the position and will change a great deal more in the next few years.</p>
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<p>Now there you go again, I just can’t have enough time spelling each word here. </p>
<p>I said it will be failure on my part if my child drop out. But that doesn’t mean I’ll be dictating her to stay put even if she doesn’t want to.</p>
<p>The two events are independent and one doesn’t indicate the other.</p>
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<p>I just can’t believe how dense the forum is here. It is really taking an effort to explain a simple thing.</p>
<p>No one is saying that you make decision for your children. The point being put forward is that you can teach your children without letting them fail.</p>
<p>Why it is so difficult to understand that it is possible to simulate all situations to provide enough data to your children to make an informed decision.</p>
<p>Making decision on behalf of your children and providing them enough information, resources so that they make a right decision without pitfalls are two different things.</p>
<p>Adult hood is not a biological change that happens in human at a decided age of 18 years. Adult hood is a gradual process in which parent and society at large teach skills both real, behavior, and emotional to the teenager.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why providing information, resources and helping teenage by parent is attributed as controlling children.
I think you need get your fact right.</p>
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<p>It seems you have some regrets else why you mentioned MIT, there might be many other schools your S must have ignored.</p>
<p>DD chose MIT over Stanford/Princeton, two schools on the top of DW list. So once again providing choices, resources and information to children so that they make an informed decision is not controlling.</p>
<p>If parent stand on the side while children shoot them selves in the foot just to teach children lesson is a foolish act and may constitute negligence.</p>
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Ummm, maybe out for a joy ride or a road trip in that new car of his??? :D</p>
<p>'Why it is so difficult to understand that it is possible to simulate all situations to provide enough data to your children to make an informed decision."
because in this country it’s NOT possible to control ALL THE THINGS THAT REALLY COULD HAPPEN in college or in life, unless you are determined to try to CONTROL BOTH the simulation AND THEIR LIVES - in other words, NOT allow your child to experience life on his own, which often means making mistakes.
Talk about a control freak- item # 1
"DD chose MIT over Stanford/Princeton, two schools on the top of DW list
So it was your wife’s list, NOT your D’s to begin with?. Just who was going to college??Your D or your W?
POIH, Have you never heard the saying “when one door closes another one opens”? Obviously not. In the US, it is NOT considered a failure if a “door closes”- it becomes an opportunity to discover another path. In the US, people go to college in order to discover what they want to do and who they want to become, unlike in many Asian cultures, where it seems the reason children to go to college is to make money and to not dishonor their parents. In the US, students go to college in order to learn how to think for themselves, not just to follow mommy or daddy’s carefully laid out plan.
Alas, it seems, you will never understand that his children don’t live in Asia. And by the way, if anyone is being dense, or clueless, it is you POIH.</p>
<p>Doubt any parent here <em>wants</em> their child to fail, POIH, but a child doesn’t learn to walk without falling a few times, doesn’t learn to toilet train without having a few accidents, has to learn to get themselves back to sleep when they awaken in the middle of the night. There are just some things you can’t do for your child. </p>
<p>I find this article sadly fascinating [Suicide</a> Rates Rising Among Asian Americans : AsianWeek](<a href=“http://www.asianweek.com/2009/08/14/suicide-rates-rising-among-asian-americans/]Suicide”>http://www.asianweek.com/2009/08/14/suicide-rates-rising-among-asian-americans/)</p>
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I believe what parents here are saying is not that they want their kids to fail, but that they are giving their kids the option, the choice, to think for themselves, even if it means occasionally making what may seem to the parent like a bad decision. The good news is, what looks to that parent like a bad decision might actually not be in the long run.</p>
<p>I was talking to a friend the other night who has one son who was a philosophy major and the other who is a sociology major. The philosophy major learned to think critically and to problem solve, and developed some pretty successful (self taught) computer skills on the side, and is currently working in the computer industry, putting those problem-solving and self taught technical skills to good use. Oh, and he is <em>happy</em>. To me, having a happy kid, and hopefully a happy, successful kid, is what good parenting is all about.</p>
<p>Not to belabor this point, but I re-read that article I linked above again. It is sadly disturbing. For example, it notes
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<p>This does not mean your d is going to fall victim to depression, feelings of failure, or whatever, POIH. But please, let her know that if she makes a mistake, if she messes up somewhere, that you won’t be disappointed in her-- you will still love and support her. That is the best parenting a parent can do.</p>
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<p>Believe me…many college students do NOT tell their parents EVERY detail of their lifestyles. And most parents do not want to KNOW every detail:)</p>
<p>D is a vocal performance major at NYU. She considered Music Business there, too, but decided to pursue singing because if she didn’t now, it would be hard to go back to. She is minoring in the Business of Entertainment, Media and Technology which offers classes in Music Business (Steinhardt), Entertainment Business (at Stern) and Producing (at Tisch).</p>
<p>All music majors take the same core music courses–history, aural, theory, keyboarding. But Music Business majors do not have to pursue an instrument. Even though there is an audition, it is more to see if they will be able to keep up in the core courses, not to see whether they are talented.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, the head of the Music Business department said that she looks at math scores and the math courses a studetn has taken as a major indicator of a potential student’s success. They need to be able to keep up with Stern students in all the business classes they must take.</p>
<p>Depends on the age of the child and how many times they’ve done, and even the motivation.</p>
<p>My granddad shot himself in the foot so he wouldn’t have to fight for the Czar. I’m pretty sure his dad told him to.</p>
<p>POIH: I understand your point. I think there are some cultural differences that can’t be broached. If your child doesn’t resent you helicoptering, carry on.</p>
<p>My kids kicked me off the committee. That let me know my input was no longer wanted. It was a natural process, and I felt comfortable with the transition.</p>
<p>Until that point I had my Lucy sign, “The Doctor is In” (just kidding) and I dispensed my invaluable insight (also just kidding.)</p>
<p>Baelor - No wonder you have trouble following my reasoning, you totally misstate my premise. I never said the parent could not opt out of paying for college. I did say that CHOOSING to pay should not give them that much control over the student’s life. Put quite simply, you are saying that if you pay, then you get to pick their major. OK, maybe not YOU since you say you may not go this route, but that you think it is OK. My position is that in this day and age it is very common for it to be considered an expectation that the parent, if financially able, will continue to pay for a child’s education through college, just as they did through high school either by paying for it directly (private school) or through taxes at a public school. Just like they are expected to clothe, feed and provide shelter. So yes, I am saying that if a parent plans not to do that unless they have complete control over one of the most fundamental decisions of a person’s life, their choice of career, they have an obligation to tell that child at a very early age, and repeat it often. Do you also think you get to pick their friends while they are in high school? Who they date? Why not, you are paying for everything. And if you do think that, then does it continue in college because you continue to pay for everything? And if you don’t think that, then why do you get to control something even more fundamental, their mind? Because by picking what they get to study that is exactly what you are doing in large measure. You ask:
I am saying that it is increasingly the case that if a parent can afford it, that is the norm. I am not saying it is an absolute yet. It is not quite that pervasive, but it is getting there. And by the way the system is designed that way too, since parental finances are considered in financial aid decsions REGARDLESS if the parent has agreed to pay or not. A student would somehow have to completely separate themselves from their family to be considered on their own, I don’t even know how that is done. But I am saying that if the parent chooses to pay for it that doesn’t give them the right to make such an intrusive decision. Are there any majors that are so “out there” that they are really that bad? As has been stated many times on this very thread, people have majored in many seemingly “useless” areas and had perfectly great careers, and often what seems useless turns out to be anything but.</p>
<p>The fact that you cannot follow my reasoning because you misstate my arguments is troubling. If you think it is OK to demand, not suggest but demand, how an 18 year sets the direction of the rest of their life simply because you don’t want to “waste” your money, then you have no idea what the term overly controlling means. I repeat, you are perfectly free to not spend the money sending a child to college for any reason. Some people choose not to pay not because of the major the child wants, but simply because they think once a person turns 18 they are on their own. I actually have far less trouble with that position than blackmailing a person into choosing a career they might hate because you have all the power. But if you do spend the money, of your own free will, that does not confer the right to decide what that child does with their career, or the preparation for it in college.</p>
<p>POIH,
Do I think my S made a wrong decision in turning down MIT for UChicago? No. Are there any regrets over the road not taken? Sometimes. We ALL have those moments in our lives. But hey, S1 had fabulous choice. There were no bad decisions to be made. He did his HW on this one. </p>
<p>Do you and your DW have regrets about your D choosing MIT over S/P? I kept up with last spring’s thread…there was much wringing of hands and anguish because neither you nor your DW was entirely happy with your D’s choice of MIT. Does your D have regrets? Will she once classses are no longer pass/fail?</p>
<p>S1 spent two years crafting his list, talking to profs, students, grad students, sitting in on classes (he visited Chicago, Mudd and MIT three times each and did multiple overnights), and when April 2008 rolled around, he had exactly the acceptances he wanted. I’ve posted previously about the decision matrix and criteria he used in making his final decisions, so I won’t bore the long-timers here with it again. Suffice it to say that after seven years in a math/science/CS incubator, he was ready to be challenged to grow in different directions, while at the same time preparing himself for his long-term goals.</p>
<p>He spent this past summer working with a prof at MIT (who hired him <em>because</em> he was at Chicago and wanted someone with that kind of background) and taught at Splash last weekend. Without getting into more details on a public board, he has managed to create an experience that straddles both schools and gets him some of the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>As for what we expect for our investment:<br>
- a happy, emotionally healthy young adult
- a decent GPA (which he also wants, considering his grad school plans)
- a degree in four years
- a plan for his future</p>
<p>He is more than meeting our expectations. It’s fun to watch him fly. Can’t wait to see my next son launch!</p>
<p>OP</p>
<p>Does your hs offer testing like Meyers Briggs etc? Some tool to help you ds see what his leanings are…what he gravitates towards etc…</p>
<p>It is good he is talking—
and keeping that communication open ended will help…</p>
<p>Asking questions about what part music business does he think he’d liek
Marketing
Accounting
etc</p>
<p>He can start college in the business realm and see if he even likes those things…
since what you describe seems to indicate he isn’t interested in being the performer (not showing passion in his music, beyond a hobby)</p>
<p>If business is not the direction he wants to go–alot of that can become electives or added towards a minor.</p>