Your kid wants to major in something you can't seem them doing in a million years!

Parents Forum
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<p>Your criteria are clearly not drawn out of a hat. In other words, when one considers only you as a subject, then they are certainly not arbitrary. But when one considers the priorities and thought processes of all the parents, each set of criteria is arbitrary. For example, the “if yes” stipulation in your first criterion may not exist in another parent’s – in other words, if an activity can be harmful in the long run, it’s out without further consideration. That is my point.</p>

<p>I’m actually arguing for the shades of grey approach here, or at least a relativist one. I’m surprised that that hasn’t come through.</p>

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<p>Are you kidding? Of course there’s a difference. The questions that matter are as follows:

  1. How significant is this difference?
  2. How different are they in nature?</p>

<p>I connected two extreme cases for the sake of illustration. As I pointed out, these distinctions are on a theoretical level arbitrary in nature. Your laughable vitriol and incoherent attacks on my mental stability are simply evidence that you are not aware of this fact. I am not claiming them to be identical. Just because you are unable to step outside your own viewpoint and consider alternatives does not mean everyone else is irrational.</p>

<p>Consider:</p>

<p>Parent 1 believes that pornography is evil and disgusting. Parent 1 realizes that his student has been using his allowance to purchase online pornography. Parent 1 does not want his money going toward the porn business, so he cuts the support.</p>

<p>Parent 2 believes that pornography is wrong, but doesn’t really care that much. His student has been purchasing pornography, but the parent doesn’t withhold support because he believes the student is making the right choice.</p>

<p>Is either parent irrational? Hardly. Now consider drugs, flunking out, alcohol, or even major instead of pornography. THESE ARE ALL DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. I am not claiming that they are the same. However, the priority and significance that each parent ascribes to them is different, and thus, in a literal sense of the word, arbitrary when one considers the entire set of parents.</p>

<p>I therefore don’t see why parents should be faulted for having differing criteria and ideas of what is worth considering. Is there a huge difference between porn and drugs? Drugs and underage drinking? Drugs and flunking out? Flunking out and major? Major and drugs? Underage drinking and flunking out? Porn and major?</p>

<p>How can you say that all parents should view these the same way, especially if they don’t believe in supporting causes and lifestyles with which they disagree.</p>

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<p>I must admit, I have popped a fresh pot of popcorn and pulled up a ringside seat. This is more entertaining than the Dancing with the Stars finale. My money is on Fallenchemist. The wisdom of age and experience.</p>

<p>BTW, The GA- GA Tech game is this weekend, if anyone cares.</p>

<p>And the answer to this question

uh… YES</p>

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<p>"paying for the kind of stuff most parents consider to be part of the basic nurturing "</p>

<p>Could that be most CC parents?..I swear I don’t know many parents who consider paying for college to be “basic” nurturing…Of course I don’t know many who could afford it, so who is to say. </p>

<p>"Annals of child psychology, developmental psychology, counseling psychology and clinical psychology are littered with distorted lives of children of such parents. "</p>

<p>I thing you are talking about pretty extreme stuff ( “manipulate children like a puppet master”?..How many of “us” said anything like that?), but I’d still like to see a link or two. Is there something out there that claims to have a defined boundry regarding too much parental “control”? I didn’t think the causes of the “distroted lives of children” was that clear cut.</p>

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<p>"Indulgent parents (also referred to as “permissive” or “nondirective”) “are more responsive than they are demanding. They are nontraditional and lenient, do not require mature behavior, allow considerable self-regulation, and avoid confrontation” (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62). Indulgent parents may be further divided into two types: democratic parents, who, though lenient, are more conscientious, engaged, and committed to the child, and nondirective parents.</p>

<p>Authoritarian parents are highly demanding and directive, but not responsive. “They are obedience- and status-oriented, and expect their orders to be obeyed without explanation” (Baumrind, 1991, p. 62). These parents provide well-ordered and structured environments with clearly stated rules. Authoritarian parents can be divided into two types: nonauthoritarian-directive, who are directive, but not intrusive or autocratic in their use of power, and authoritarian-directive, who are highly intrusive.</p>

<p>Authoritative parents are both demanding and responsive. “They monitor and impart clear standards for their children’s conduct. They are assertive, but not intrusive and restrictive. Their disciplinary methods are supportive, rather than punitive. They want their children to be assertive as well as socially responsible, and self-regulated as well as cooperative” …</p>

<p>Uninvolved parents are low in both responsiveness and demandingness. In extreme cases, this parenting style might encompass both rejecting–neglecting and neglectful parents, although most parents of this type fall within the normal range…</p>

<p>Children and adolescents whose parents are authoritative rate themselves and are rated by objective measures as more socially and instrumentally competent than those whose parents are nonauthoritative (Baumrind, 1991; Weiss & Schwarz, 1996; Miller et al., 1993). </p>

<p>Children and adolescents whose parents are uninvolved perform most poorly in all domains. </p>

<p>In general, parental responsiveness predicts social competence and psychosocial functioning, while parental demandingness is associated with instrumental competence and behavioral control (i.e., academic performance and deviance). These findings indicate:</p>

<p>Children and adolescents from authoritarian families (high in demandingness, but low in responsiveness) tend to perform moderately well in school and be uninvolved in problem behavior, but they have poorer social skills, lower self-esteem, and higher levels of depression. </p>

<p>Children and adolescents from indulgent homes (high in responsiveness, low in demandingness) are more likely to be involved in problem behavior and perform less well in school, but they have higher self-esteem, better social skills, and lower levels of depression…"
[Parenting</a> Style and Its Correlates](<a href=“http://www.athealth.com/Practitioner/ceduc/parentingstyles.html]Parenting”>http://www.athealth.com/Practitioner/ceduc/parentingstyles.html)</p>

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<p>Well, goody for you. I’m more judgmental than that.</p>

<p>I know a father who could EASILY afford to pay for the finest colleges, but told his brilliant hard-working son that he’d only pay for their (low tier) state U and if he wanted a better school, he was on his own. It was only a mere coincidence that the father had a hot new girlfriend who liked expensive jewelry and cruises and those came before the son’s education. The son worked 3 jobs to stay at the top 20 school he was admitted to. Guess what? I’m easily judgmental. I think the father was a grade A — - hole and I look down on him for that behavior.</p>

<p>You seem to want us to say “Well, it’s their personal decision.” Well, of course it is! I have to “accept” it (unless I want to fund their kids, which I don’t) but that doesn’t mean I can’t be judgmental about it.</p>

<p>And yeah, I think the kinds of people who force their kids to be in pre-med or engineering or business when those aren’t the kid’s passions or interest are worthy of my scorn too.</p>

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<p>^^ That’s good. I wonder if my home is indulgent? One kid did great in school, the other didn’t, and I don’t beleive it was because they were raised differently. I feel I have to respond to them differently, because they are tempermentally different. Depending on how you define depression, I believe temperment can be as important as parenting in it’s origin. </p>

<p>I’m glad/hope you are still around tonight NSM. I think of your boys, and how you handled them often.</p>

<p>P.S. I hope your right about the tech work! My D would LOVE to hear it!</p>

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<p>" I hope your right about the tech work! My D would LOVE to hear it!"</p>

<p>Due to all of the arts that I’ve gotten involved in during the last few years, I know lots of people in theater, and all say that tech work is where the money is. People in tech tend to do contract work, I hear, so I have been telling son that it would be a good idea for him to take some business courses. Thus far, he hasn’t been interested, but what do I know? I’m just a mom.</p>

<p>One of my friends has an undergrad degree in physics from Grinnell and an MFA or similar degree in theater from some school in London. He constructs sets for a university opera company, and lives extremely comfortably. Large house, guest house, boat, sink hole and summers off.</p>

<p>What these techies are making is far above the norm, but their salaries demonstrate what’s possible: [Bloomberg.com:</a> News](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

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<p>It makes sense that tech work is lucrative - there are thousands of aspiring actors out there, but how many people do you think enjoy hanging lights for 16 hours backstage?</p>

<p>I think it’s important the most majors don’t have a direct trajectory into a career path. You can major in music business and become a pastor, or major in psychology and become an investment banker. Even majors that seem more vocational don’t always lead to careers in that field - I had a mechanical engineering major as a physics and calculus teacher in high school, and I know a nutrition major who’s a project coordinator for a research lab here. I’ve had dozens of people ask me if I wanted to be a therapist when I majored in psychology when therapy was always the LAST thing on my mind…I’m trying to be a professor now.</p>

<p>I remember watching in college a lot of my friends struggling with their parents over majors. My parents were only ever mildly interested in my major - my dad suggested engineering because he worked for engineers and he wanted me to be a manager and make money - but some of these girls’ parents (I went to a women’s college) were almost forcing their children to major in some things. Biology was the one most popular, since some parents wanted their kid to be a physician. When my boyfriend changed his major from aerospace engineering to mathematics (he wanted to be a math teacher) his parents flipped their lid. It didn’t make him want to change back; he just withdrew and stopped talking to them about it.</p>

<p>I completely understand that parents are just concerned about their children’s well-being. They want us to be able to support ourselves and live happy lives, and they know that at 18 we’re not really familiar with the dynamics of getting and maintaining a job that’s not minimum wage retail or fast food or something. My dad pushed me to go to Georgia Tech because he loved me and wanted me to succeed, not because he was trying to control my life. That’s fine. I wish more college students realized that, but it’s hard to see it when you’re 18 and you don’t have to pay for anything yet.</p>

<p>On the other hand though, a lot of parents don’t realize that majors aren’t a direct path to a job. What seems “practical” actually may not be practical - it is better for a medical school bound student to study something they love and get high grades than it is for them to major in biology and tank on everything, you know? It is possibly better for a future consultant to major in psychology and develop a fundamental understanding of organizational behavior and management strategies (which is a subset of psychology) than for them to do the generic business course. It just depends on the kid. A really quiet music business major may make a fantastic studio operator; you have to stay silent while you’re listening :)</p>

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<p>I see that Baelor is a freshman at Princeton, or at least so he says. That explains a lot of the strawman arguments such as comparing paying for porn or drugs to paying for college and when it is permissable to have control of life choices based on that paying. He must be taking a philosphy course that discussed about how all choices are “arbitrary”. That is great in a theoretical discussion, but it doesn’t apply to real life. We are not using the word arbitrary in such an abstract, absolutist way. When the vast majority of people make common judgements about things (hard drugs are bad, committing a felony is bad), they are not arbitrary for the purposes of this discussion. But I never said all parents view these things the same way, I did say and will say again there are societal norms around which we all make various choices.</p>

<p>Of course you will find parents that are more permissive about drugs and porn than others. What that has to do with anything is beyond me, other than you have demonstrated that you believe that you can run your life on some abstract theoretical philosophy. Yours apparently being “If I pay I either control every decision or no decisions, because otherwise I am being arbitrary”. What a joke, as you will find out when real life smacks you in the face someday.</p>

<p>So in another attempt to get this back to the original, simple question that was, I think, “If I pay for college do I get to pick their major”, I believe the answer should be no for all the reasons I have stated. Again, trying to distill them to their essence, you can choose to pay or choose not to pay for your kids college, I have no problem with that as long as they know which way you are deciding from an early age. But if you do decide you are going to pay, it does not give the parent the right to choose the area of study, just as they don’t get to pick who they date and other similar very personal decisions. They do get to expect, just as they would have throughout their kid’s lives to that point, that they won’t waste the opportunity by blowing off classes to an extreme, doing failing work, getting hooked on drugs, getting arrested for a felony, etc. These, despite Baelor’s comments, are not arbitrary but are widely held values. Of course there are individual variations, that is not the point. Up to the point of certain core, personal decisions every family has certain rules and understandings of what is and is not acceptable. But certain decisions, of which I have already given the examples of a personal relationship and, to the topic of this argument, one’s life work, of which the major is preparation at least to the bast of the student’s intentions at that point, should never be held hostage to the circumstance of who is paying for the student’s life expenses at that time.</p>

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<p>Being authoritative parent is certainly the best way to raise children. The ability of the parent to identify pitfalls and provide support by monitoring the children activity is the basic part of being an authoritative parent.</p>

<p>Hence, I rest my case, “Me, Lord”.</p>

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<p>You aren’t authoritative, ParentofIvyHope. You are authoritarian.</p>

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<p>NSM: I can only say that it is your own opinion. Please provide support to your conclusion by listing any action that indicate the behavior being ‘authoritarian’ than ‘authoritative’.</p>

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<p>POIH, I really like your posts. I think there are different ways of raising children, and from all accounts, your daughter is happy and successful. Congratulations to you.
Please know you are swimming upstream when you try to convince an individualistic culture to think collectively. In China I’m sure the majority of families/fathers would agree with every one of your posts. Though you express some opinions outside my belief-system, I find them thought-provoking and sometimes wise.</p>

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<p>Thanks compass for the support.</p>

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<p>OK sage ones…what about this scenerio. DD or DS goes to prestigious university and chooses a major that the parents just love…let’s say…biology as premed or international business. Parents fund this education. DD or DS graduates and decides to become an artist, musician, tradesperson, or whatever…but does NOT pursue what parents thought the kiddo was GOING to pursue when they funded their education. Now DD or DS is 22 or 23 years old.</p>

<p>So…what do you do? Demand a refund because your “investment went south”. Demand that the kid enter the field that you thought they were going to enter. What would you do?</p>

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<p>thumper – reminds me of the Cosby show episode when Saundra and Elvin decide to ditch med school and law school to open the wilderness store . . .</p>

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<p>Well I would like to offer this support: that we don’t categorize each other based on a sample of internet posts.</p>

<p>And the reality is, a child can only be led so far anyway. The child will rebel, fail or find an exit if the path set down by the parent is really odious.</p>

<p>That said, I seem to have NO influence over my children. Thank goodness they’re basically responsible because I think they learned how to “handle” me a long time ago. However, I would say that cleverly and politely (and might I say adroitly) handling one’s elders is a valuable skill skill too?</p>

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<p>I would pray that the child was correct and hope that s/he found happiness in her/his chosen field of endeavor. And if <em>I</em> had been right (not that scenario is in my family – my PhD in English was the horror of my parents who thought I should go to law school) and not my kids, I would hope I would be gracious enough to never say I told you so and help them figure out what to do next.</p>

<p>None of these choices is irrevocable. And unless one chooses accounting or engineering, most majors don’t lead directly to employment anyway. If the student wants med school, even a bio major has MCAT’s to do. And if a music major suddenly decides she wants med school, a postbacc year can usually make up the difference without that much wear and tear. One is even offered at our local SUNY.</p>

<p>So anyone can “get religion” and become emminently practical should the need arise.</p>

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<p>'DD or DS graduates and decides to become an artist, musician, tradesperson, or whatever…but does NOT pursue what parents thought the kiddo was GOING to pursue when they funded their education. Now DD or DS is 22 or 23 years old.</p>

<p>So…what do you do? Demand a refund because your “investment went south”. Demand that the kid enter the field that you thought they were going to enter. What would you do?'</p>

<p>i’d do what my parents did – nothing. they remained parents who loved me and trusted my new found self awareness and judgement. thirty five years ago i left school with a highly employable degree but chose, instead, to be an artist. my kids are now in college and i hope to be as gracious and understanding as they decide their futures.</p>

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<p>I would do the same as Morandi…but then I also didn’t view my payment of tuition/fees/room/board as MY investment. I viewed it as an investment for my kids.</p>