Zimmer Outlook

<p>I don't think anyone is going to like this, but I feel I have to say it.</p>

<p>I'm a student and an applicant. I usually post under another name, but I am using my sister's account for this. I can't tell you how uncomfortable all this bickering makes me. I've seen this on too many threads in recent weeks. It seems as if people draw a sharp line in the sand with U Chicago on one side and another school (usually one of the Ivies) on the other. The Ivy people complain that U Chicago people should change their school or that it can't be an excellent university because the acceptance rate is too high and the yield rate too low. Then Chicago defenders counter with the statement that they are the only university committed to scholarship left in the universe. Instead of having an intelligent discussion, the posters end up throwing bricks. Frankly, I can't accept the contentions of either side, and it doesn't seem terribly relevent to my personal situation. </p>

<p>I can't really speak about the place of Chicago in the greater universe or talk knowledgably about comparative yield rates. But I am a real person with an EA acceptance to Chicago and several applications in at Ivies (plus Swat), schools I feel may be "matches" for my personality and interests. In a few weeks, I may need to make a real decision about some of these schools in question. If none of the Ivies come through, I'll go to Chicago and consider myself extremely lucky. If I am accepted at one or more Ivy or at Swat, I'll have a serious decision to make, and it won't be easy. I value each of these schools for different reasons that has nothing to do with ranking or yield.</p>

<p>Frankly, I don't want either Chicago or the other schools to change their philosophy or personality. This would be a pretty boring world if every school was a carbon copy of the other. But it makes me extremely uncomfortable to think that, if I go to Chicago, some Ivy folk will immediately label me as a loser whose credentials aren't up to par. And if I choose to attend an Ivy, some Chicago people may assume I made that choice because I was too lazy to undergo the rigors of the UC. None of that is true but I guess you can believe what you want to believe.</p>

<p>Why can't people discuss these things intelligently? They are complicated problems with complicated answers and they deserve more than a knee jerk reaction. Yes, I would expect Zimmer to make changes at Chicago, but not the kind that imperils the philosophy or spirit of the school. Chicago is not a closed book. Even they recognize that. Why else did they make serious changes to the core a few years ago, and put more emphasis on undergrads? I expect and hope they are not frozen in time, but will look at their options carefully and show a willingness to consider changes that are in keeping with who they are, even if they make a few people uncomfortable. I would expect the same from any elite school, including Harvard. If I didn't believe Chicago was capable of that, I would never have put in an application there.</p>

<p>I agree, back to Zimmer, remember that man??? The man who is now in charge of UChicago? Let's focus on him.</p>

<p>This is bouncing off of the recent "What is wrong with the University of Chicago?" thread. Lots of people seem to point to reinstating big-time athletics (especially football) to get Chicago back to being a "top 5" school. I think this strategy is FAR too risky because starting up a reputable D1 athletics program is extremely difficult to do. Northwestern has been D1 for years, and they are still generally seen as the doormat of the Big 10 (with occasional strong years). Northwestern is essentially an Ivy trying to compete with some big-name sports schools, and they usually get pounded in the rainmaking sports (less so in football, but much more so in basketball). If Chicago, a school with a paltry athletic history in the latter half of the 20th century tried to kick start D1 sports, it's more likely that they would end up like SUNY Buffalo (which recently moved to D1 for football, for example) than Stanford.</p>

<p>Also, a note of caution - people always mention the importance of staying true to a school's alumni base. Reinstating D1 athletics would probably ANGER a LOT of Chicago alumni. Remember, most of the Chicago alums out there are the supra-nerdy types that nearly rebelled when Chicago <em>slightly</em> cut the core a few years back. Chicago can't afford to alienate the loyal alumni they already have (and keep in mind, whereas Chicago was a HYP-caliber school for quite some time, the U of C was traditionally MUCH smaller than most of the Ivies. Accordingly, Chicago has fewer alumni). Moreover, if Chicago's D1 programs don't succeed quickly, the touchy alums will only get more mad.</p>

<p>Instead of doing D1 athletics, I think a better reform could come in this way (in no particular order):</p>

<p>1.) For the incoming U of C President (Don Randel steps down at the end of the year), elect a Judith-Rodin like candidate. Randel was good, but he was just an unobtrusive guy hired to smooth over Chicago's image after the poor reaction to Sonnenschein's controversial presidency. This next hire is ABSOLUTELY key to Chicago's success for the next decade. If Chicago gets another good but nondescript guy like Randel, Chicago could very well slip out of the top 15 or so in the USNWR rankings. If a Rodin-like candidate is hired, a consistent top-8 finish in the USNWR within the next 5-7 years is feasible. UPenn is a HUGELY more reputable school now bc of Rodin, and Chicago needs a similar, hard-driving, committed, and rank-conscious leader.</p>

<p>2.) COMMIT to becoming a dominant DIII sports program, and possibly move less rainmaking sports to the DI level. I think having a spirit of athletic competion similar to Williams or Amherst would work better for Chicago than creating a D1 program. In recent years, Chicago has had reasonable success on the DIII level. They need to expand on this success, and make sure that many of their DIII squads are at the top tier of this division. The goal here is not to just raise the level of play, but to RAISE MORALE. Chicago gets respectable turnout for it's top-flight women's soccer team, strong men's soccer team, and also for basketball as well. If all the teams do well, the culture of a school can change. Slowly, Chicago could experiment with maybe have two or three sports at the D1 level (think Williams and squash).</p>

<p>With this in mind, I really think Chicago should move men's and women's soccer to D1 level within 5 years or so. The key reason for this is so Chicago can schedule some games against its peer academic schools. Since a lot of Chicago students are HYP rejects or waitlists (although I hesitate to say Chicago is a complete Ivy back-up school - most Chicago kids could probably still get into Cornell or Penn), a Harvard-Chicago soccer game would probably draw a BIG crowd at the U of C. A few contests like this a year would certainly help boost morale (especially if Chicago could win a few of these games).</p>

<p>Chicago could also develop useful regional rivalries if it re-joined the Big Ten in the smaller sports, and also played strong midwestern sports schools in select sports. The Northwestern-Chicago soccer game would be another big draw, and people would probably come out for an Notre Dame vs. Chicago game.</p>

<p>3.) Increased funding for the arts. I'm surprised no one mentioned this already - Chicago lags behind its peers in providing adequate space for endeavors outside of academics. The student body at Chicago just isn't as diverse as the students at Brown or Princeton. Adding top-flight facilities for the arts (combined with a burgeoning DIII athletics program) will make the College at the U of C MUCH more well-rounded, and much more true to its goal of providing a liberal-arts education (which carries an implication of at least offering more in the arts than Chicago currently does).</p>

<p>4.) Change the admissions policies. Right now, Chicago gives out 32 merit-based full scholarships. As part of the fund-raising drive, Chicago needs to try to double (or perhaps even triple) this number, and be even more generous with merit-based aid. At this point, Chicago's lifestyle reputation is not good enough to steadily draw cross admits away from other schools like Columbia or perhaps even Northwestern. For some students, a half-ride (combined with generous grants) from Chicago in comparison to paying full at Columbia could make a difference. Taking a few more of the pure alpha-students (the straight A, 3 varsity sport, student gov't presidet types) who would have gone to Princeton or Harvard through the use of aggressive merit based aid can only help Chicago's rep. Others in high schools might remember that the top overall kid (4.0 GPA, student body president, 2350 on the SAT, captain of the lacrosse team, blah blah blah) - and not just the nerdy kid who never left the library and didn't talk to anyone - went to Chicago, and this might allow the school to gain more appeal.</p>

<p>Also, Chicago needs to switch to ED to boost selectivity and increase morale on campus (i.e. with ED, more students decide Chicago is their first choice and WANT to be there, rather than settling).</p>

<p>I think Penn's ED decision would work well for Chicago. I'd assume that most Penn kids would rather be at Princeton or Harvard (I assume that Penn gets killed in terms of cross admits with these schools), but their % of ED students in the matriculating class is huge (like 50%). Most Penn kids know they couldn't get into HYP, and they are therefore happy with Penn (and not all that below HYP admits). Chicago should aim to have 35-40% of their class filled by the ED pool, and these kids will be happier to be at Chicago (bc by applying ED they implicitly realize they aren't HYP level candidates).</p>

<p>Finally, Chicago needs to look for a broader range of students more actively. Instead of just admitting brainiacs and the occasional athlete for a sport, Chicago needs to have a solid base of academics, but they do need to get a few more of the i-banking football types that form the bottom of many ivy classes. Also, they need to look for more smart artists or those with other talents as well. Nerds should still be prevalent, but not a ridiculously dominating force in the student body. Again, merit aid could help the cause, at least initially.</p>

<p>5.) Centralize residential life and play up being in the city of Chicago. The closing of the Shoreland (the dorm far away from campus) may be a good thing. The U of C should build soundly constructed dorms near the central quad. Chicago could also consider maybe adopting a residential college system like Yale's to improve social life. The new dorms should all be close to one another, and they should encourage a more vibrant social life.</p>

<p>Finally, make sure transportation to downtown and the northside of Chicago is safe and accessible for all students, and work to get Chicago students discounts throughout the city (make the U of C ID Card useable in certain locations in the city maybe). Maybe have a weekly e-mail sent out to students containing deals and rebates for U of C students? Drop the barrier a bit between the school and the rest of the city.</p>

<p>As a relatively recent Chicago alum, I'm actually surprised people speak sooo poorly about the school. Many of you have NO IDEA just how bad the school was in the late 80s and early 90s. That was back when Chicago admitted like 70% of the applicants, sports were awful at the DIII level, and some of the dorms were falling apart.</p>

<p>In the past few years especially, I've watched the changes at Chicago with considerable interest. Let me emphasize this - the school is a LOT better now than even 5 years ago. There are a lot more stores and shops in Hyde Park, and older students actually have viable hang-out options outside of Jimmy's. There's a bowling alley near campus, a great jazz club, Bar Louie, more restaurants, etc etc... In any case, I think the school is on the right track, but decisions in the next few years (especially deciding on the next president) will be HUGE.</p>

<p>The practical goals for Chicago should be to make sure it's a solid top-8 or so school in the US News rankings, and make sure that the school improves their yield rate, especially when in competition with other schools, in the coming years. Chicago should look to have - at the least - a 40/60 split with the "hot" peer schools like Brown and Columbia within the next 5-7 years. Perhaps, Chicago could get this to 50/50 at some point (a notion that wasn't unthinkable earlier in this century).</p>

<p>Through all of this, Chicago of course needs to maintain its academic reputation (and not have the connotation of pre-professionalism that surrounds, say, UPenn), but it MUST lose its "where fun comes to die" rep.</p>

<p>To Arwen 18</p>

<p>What a great post! You clearly are approaching a major decision correctly. Don't pay attention to any of the people that put down either Chicago, the Ivies or any other of the fine universities in the top 50 or otherwise.</p>

<p>If you end up attending Harvard or one of the Ivies, please don't turn into another Byerly. I am sure Chicago would like to have you.</p>

<p>Good Luck</p>

<p>Byerly's suggestions are interesting because they are not nearly as aggressive as what Chicago has already done in the last few years. Chicago has built a new athletic facility open to all the campus and has invested heavily into club sports. Recently, my S's club made a trip to the west coast for a competition that paid for largely by the University. I believe Chicago's team was the only university sponsored team present. Chicago offers many more athletic opportunities (if a student wants them) than does most of its peers. It will never reinstitute a major varsity sports program, but does have a quality program now (by the way, the first Heisman Trophy, Jay Berwanger, winner was from U of C). Any 10 students can form a sports team and the university will do its best to provide a coach. </p>

<p>A new performing arts center is under construction, and new campus dorms are being built. (<a href="http://maroon.uchicago.edu/news/articles/2006/02/28/university_plans_to_.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://maroon.uchicago.edu/news/articles/2006/02/28/university_plans_to_.php&lt;/a&gt;) There is a $100 million fundraising effort among alumni to increase scholarship dollars. More importantly, exciting new academic facilities have recently been completed and more are being built. </p>

<p>The admissions group, has over the past few years, made a real effort to communicate the values of The University and its sense of humor and is being quite successful at letting students know that this is not your typical university, rigor and the life of the mind come first and foremost. To their credit, they do this even during the April "prospie" visits, which in all likelihood hurts yield somewhat, but builds a more cohesive student body. </p>

<p>Being in Chicago has been increasingly emphasized, culminating in a first year welcome atop the John Hancock building. The House system has become very supportive of new students and introductions to the City of Chicago with House outings and activities during "O" week are outstanding. </p>

<p>It is unlikely Chicago will go to ED admissions. Chicago has too much respect for its students to do that. It wants them to make choices and question their decision right up to the last minute. It especially wants them to be able to evaluate their financial and merit aid opportunities before making their final decision.</p>

<p>Chicago attracts far fewer applicants than its peer institutions. Not all high SAT scoring good GPA students are attracted to the rigor and commitment to inquiry that is Chicago, for others they understand the merit aid will be better elsewhere, and for yet others, Chicago's reputation scares off the "what the heck, I'll take a shot," long shots who apply to many of the Ivy's and other schools, Chicago's well known self-selection. (A recent analysis on the parents forum indicated that if the pool of students who really had a shot at an Ivy were considered as their real admit pool, the Ivy admit rate is closer to Chicago's). As noted earlier, even with a higher acceptance rate, and a lower yield, Chicago's student stats put it right there with the Ivy's and other very selective schools; self-selection and the overall quality of the Chicago applicant pool is beyond dispute.</p>

<p>It was Chicago in 1994 that instituted a comprehensive survey of student satisfaction that lead to many of the changes students enjoy today, and was the model others have followed since including the Ivy's. Chicago continues to grow, change, and renew itself, it is part of its core beliefs, it is why the Phoenix is its symbol, but its heart will not change, that "Idea of the University" as spoken of earlier.</p>

<p>It has always struck me as odd to claim that the relatively small applicant pool is due to "self-selection" - ie, that only those most interested in attending bother to apply - when the facts seem to contradict the claim. In fact, the great majority of those who not only apply but are <em>admitted</em> clearly go elsewhere; if they have a decent choice, they "select" another school.</p>

<p>Better examples of schools with a "self-selecting" applicant pool are those which are able to matriculate a high fraction of those admitted - particularly if they are able to do so without "outbidding" the competition via tuition reductions. Notre Dame, Brigham Young, Curtis and other schools come to mind, in addition to a Harvard, Stanford or Yale. </p>

<p>This is the problem Chicago has to address. Whether the answer is a stronger sports program, better amenities, or simply a more effective way, during the admissions process, of filtering out those using the school as a backup or safety, or some combination of these, is what the new administration must decide. </p>

<p>The young grad's idea is that the steps he suggests will raise morale, and thus, in time, raise the yield rate - ie, increase the willingness of those Chicogo most wants to matriculate to, in fact, do so.</p>

<p>I think Chicago would be better if it was located somewhere not so cold :p</p>

<p>Chicago's self-selection works at two levels. First at the time of application, then again when the reality of the choice sets in. Those that choose Chicago are, by and large, a stronger group than those who decide to go elsewhere. They have confronted the rigor of Chicago and most know that's where they belong.</p>

<p>I asked earlier for some link demonstrating your claim that the minor fraction of Chicago admits choosing to matriculate is "a stronger group" than the major fraction of admits that declines Chicago's offer and chooses to enroll elsewhere.</p>

<p>I believe you (or someone else) also declared that the admits going elesewhere go to "lower ranked" schools.</p>

<p>These claims not only seem counter-intuitive, but somewhat in conflict with each other.</p>

<p>Can you provide any supporting data? </p>

<p>When you say the minor fraction of Chicago admits who choose to enroll are "stronger" do you mean <em>academically</em> stronger? ... or are you saying they are more courageous, or have stronger moral fibre as you see it ... or what?</p>

<p>I think that the self-selection claim goes something like this:</p>

<p>Chicago has about 4000 undergraduates, and Princeton has about 4000 undergraduates. The statistics of the entering class at both schools are very similar. However, Princeton's admit rate is about 1/4 that of Chicago. The problem, then, is not that Chicago's applicants aren't as strong as Princeton's. Rather, the problem is that about 4 times as many students must be applying to Princeton. I think that's the "self-selection" argument.</p>

<p>Is it a good thing that more people aren't applying to Chicago? There's an argument to be made either way.</p>

<p>On the one hand, I agree that the art facilities are severely lacking. On the other hand, students do a lot with the limited resources they have... There's a whole line of UT shows that emphasize minimalist sets. I used to have a job that involved heavy interaction with alumni, and hearing all of their grievances against the University has a jading effect.</p>

<p>To Arwen: Yours is a great attitude. However, don't let the intellectual snobbery turn you away, because it is a great, fun school.</p>

<p>To people in general: The TA myth is a strange one. Most people probably have a grad student teach at least one class. It is possible to graduate without ever taking a class from a grad student, though. I guess that's impressive. First year I had three grad students and seven professors, and the grad students aren't bad. If I had practiced more strategic scheduling, I could have gotten away with one grad student (pretty much unavoidable if you're in general calculus [not honors]).</p>

<p>The data were from a survey of students going elsewhere and where in a link I posted some time ago. I will see if I can resurrect it. Stronger in both senses. Look at the SAT scores, Chicago's SAT range is higher, than half of the Ivy's, who are much more selective. How does one explain that? This is the case even though Chicago barely cares about SAT scores, and takes many who have lower sores, or GPA's if they measure up to Chicago potential. It says something about the Chicago pool, it is quite a different group. </p>

<p>My S loves Chicago, has a ball, and has had close contact and good rapport with all his professors, though they have been world renown. Some have said to stop by and chat even though they aren't currently teaching a class he is taking. The Core has been a delight for him, opening new areas of interest and providing a great dialogue with fellow students. A friend from UChicago has come home with him over break, the dinner conversations have been amazing. Everything from philosophy to Greek literature to physics to calc proofs, to art theory and, of course females and parties. I found my wife with tears in her eyes, concerned I asked what was wrong, she looked at me and said "I could never imagine it could be this wonderful. I am so happy for him." She got me a little teary as well.</p>

<p>In looking for that survey, I came across this one, which speaks to the strength and self-selecting difference in Chicago admits.</p>

<p>"A recent national survey of college freshmen confirms a common portrait of the U of C student: one who places a greater value on intellectual riches than material wealth.</p>

<p>Last fall, the Cooperative Institutional Research Program (CIRP) conducted its 34th annual survey to see how freshmen view themselves, their goals, and current social issues. Founded in 1966 by the American Council on Education and now based at UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute, CIRP is the nation's oldest and largest empirical study of higher education.</p>

<p>A total of 261,217 students at 462 colleges were polled, with responses from 767 students in the U of C's class of 2003 compared to those of freshmen at 20 "highly selective" private universities. Among the more telling findings, 44 percent of U of C first-years expect to earn a Ph.D., versus only 29 percent of freshmen in the peer group; 52 percent consider getting a good job an important incentive for attending college, compared to 65 percent; and 88 percent came to college to gain an appreciation of ideas, versus 77 percent"</p>

<p>Somehow I don't think any of that proves your claim that the minority of common admits who pick Chicago over another school to which they are admitted are "stronger" than the 2/3 who went elsewhere, or that the majority who went elsewhere went, for the most part, to "lower-ranked" schools.</p>

<p>Some schools (Brown, for example) report the admit rate and yield rate at various SAT levels, but Chicago, as far as I can tell, does not.</p>

<p><a href="http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=377%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=377&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://ms7.dpbwin2k.cornell.edu/documents/1000001.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ms7.dpbwin2k.cornell.edu/documents/1000001.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You will please note that as the SAT score and class standing rise, the admit rate goes UP, but the yield rate goes DOWN. The Brown numbers are similar.</p>

<p>I would wage that this is true at Chicago as well.</p>

<p>Thus, the admits who go elsewhere are not in the WEAKER half or quadrant of the admits,but in the STRONGER half or quadrant - and probably by a wide margin.</p>

<p>Chicago SAT's have risen consistently the last few years with no real increase or decrease in yield or decrease in admit rates (though this year there may be a drop in admit rate because of the record number of applicants.</p>

<p>Again, that doesn't go to the point, and, moreover, it does not appear that SAT scores at Chicago have substantially changed relative to peer schools. </p>

<p>If I had to guess, I'd say that the SAT median for the applicant group has gone down, relatively, since Chicago stopped sharing an EA pool with certain other schools. If I am wrong about that, I'd be happy to stand corrected.</p>

<p>Why do we continue to humor Byerly? Who cares? If a student decides to attend Chicago and gets a great education, what difference do arbitrary ranking systems make?</p>

<p>I'm really tired of criticisms made by individuals that have no vested interest in the school. If you are a parent of a U Chicago student, a former or current student, a former or current professor an alumni, or a prospective student, welcome to the thread.</p>

<p>If you are like Byerly, who harps over and over again about the same non-consequential issues - go to the Ivy League site.</p>

<p>From the 2005 Chicago annual report, the mean SAT of applicants has risen in 04-05 to 1415, from 1393 from 01-02. Further, the yield has barely changed, 34% in 04-05, 33% in 01-02. </p>

<p>The number of higher scoring students is steadily increasing as well, all without a material change in admit rate or yield.
<a href="http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=377%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=377&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>2007:
1500-1600 21%
1400-1490 32%</p>

<p>2008:
1500-1600 25%
1400-1490 40%</p>

<p>2009:
1500-1600 29%
1400-1490 39%</p>

<p>(Still looking for that link, I am getting a little annoyed that I cannot locate it, I was even able to find one showing that transfer students did not transfer to more well known schools, but to lesser schools as well, even though their grades are high [financial reasons and being closer to home the most often stated reason for transferring])</p>

<p>patsfan: Good point (I'm still annoyed I can't find that link, however).</p>