<p>DS has completed both STEP 2 CK and STEP 2 CS – assuming that he passes the latter. We learned from DS that STEP-2 CS is a pass/no-pass test, with about 90% of passing rate. Also heard of the rumor that the CS is mostly meant for screening out those non-English-speakers.</p>
<p>At one time, DS met some of those “big-on-research” post-doc who had actually had an MD from other country and had scored very high on both STEP-1 and STEP-2 CK, but the hurdle for him is STEP-2 CS. Where a person attended his/her K-12 schools matters for this profession.</p>
<p>Also learned that DS and his GF are “close to each other” enough to share their test scores and it turns out they have the exactly same scores for both tests. (This does not prevent him from believing that she is smarter than him. I am too old to remember this: Is this what those-in-love will do for each other: believe the SO as the most perfect one in the world? :))</p>
<p>STEP 2 CS is a huge money grab, something obscene like $1200-$1500 test fee plus a flight to one of 6 cities in the US plus hotel bills. Stupid money grab by the test providers who convinced someone that US students should take it, too. </p>
<p>DS mentioned that he heard one of the purposes for the CS test is to screen out those who are not proficient in spoken English. If it is really like that, can they replace it with some variation of TOEFL (sp?) which has a higher bar than the typical TOEFL? I also heard that the students are not “exam-ed” by any real doctors. They see hired “actors” and answer some phone calls from faked patients and then write down the “answers” which will eventually be evaluated by a real doctor.</p>
<p>They provide lunch to the test takers, unlike STEP 1 test.</p>
<p>Do students prepare for STEP 2 CS just like they do for STEP 1 and STEP 2 CK? It seems DS had spent a couple of hours before the test (during his long NE-to-SE flight to the test center at least) but I did not see he was very nervous/concerned about this test. (It is telling that he combined this STEP 2 CS test trip with a vacation trip with us. I think he would not be in the mode of doing the same for his STEP 1 test.)</p>
<p>As best as I can recall, S spent a couple of hours at most prepping. His biggest concern was getting a good night’s sleep and showing up on time. Although both US and foreign students do fail it, S indicated that he and classmates felt it was an unnecessary and expensive joke. Reading the wiki article above, IMO, it suggests US students were included to prevent or halt some discrimination lawsuit based on nationality.</p>
<p>Just curious, I heard it is more challenging for a graduate, with or without US citizenship, from a foreign med school to obtain a residency spot (especially for specialties outside of the family practice or a few other specialties like medicine.)</p>
<p>How about a graduate from an American med school who, for example, is a Canadian citizen but not a US citizen? BTW, are they called IMG or FMG (such a confusing term)? Do they also have a similar difficulty in obtaining a residency slot? I once read from somewhere that there are 100 to 250 (depending on the class year) of such students who have been graduated from a “right” med school but with a “wrong” citizenship (i.e., with an F-1 visa status when he or she is a med school student.)</p>
<p>Yes, they do but for it’s for all specialties. FM or IM aren’t any easier. There are a bunch of reasons but mostly because a lot of residency programs do not want to jump thru the hoops needed to apply for a J1 visa for a non US citizen to train at their program. (Costs too much and plenty of US citizen applicants. This includes many top residency programs–they simply will not interview non residents regardless of what school they graduated from.) Also only 32 states permit the awarding of medical licenses to non US citizens or PRs. (You must have at least a provisional med license to prescribe and having one is a basic requirement in your residency contract.)</p>
<p>Supposedly it’s because it’s getting harder and harder to place non US citizens into residencies that Mayo stopped considering foreign applicants last year.</p>
<p>For Canadians there’s also an extra layer of complexity. In order to be eligible for a J1 visa, Canadian citizens are required to obtain a “certificate of need” from their provincial health office attesting to shortage of doctors in their particular specialty in their home province. Apparently, its pretty easy to get the certification in FM or IM or OB/GYN, but for the more competitive specialties–the number of certifications allowed nationally are in the single digits. (As an example, last year, Canada limited the number of J1s in radiology to just 5.) </p>
<p>I do not know how hard is it for these graduates to go for the H1B route rather than J-1 route. I heard the TN visa specifically for Canadian is only good for a position that has no direct patient contact (e.g., academic medicine?)</p>
<p>For DS’s classmates who (still) live in the same dorm building with DS and who do not take the research year, there are 3 such students. I vaguely remember that DS once mentioned that they had fewer interview opportunities and are also careful about the specialties that may be open to them, even though their other credentials may be quite good. After all, only a hundred or so such students (actually ALL of these 3 students had attended US UG or even US high school) get into a US medical school each year. So the odds they are good (esp., in the research area) is very good. </p>
<p>TOTALLY agree with the money grab comment made above. If I recall correctly, my daughter’s medical school made all MS3’s participate in a day long clinical assessment session before they took Step-2 CS. The session was video taped and the student received feedback. D thought it was kind of silly but saw the point of making sure that future doctors can communicate effectively. </p>
Yes, Elleneast, my DD’s school, too, it was both an exam and a practice for Step 2 CS.
MCAT- there are US citizens who graduate from foreign medical schools like UK, Caribbean, etc. Usually they are assumed to have not gotten into a US school, though the UK program is,IIR, 6 years including undergrad so is a way to get in right out of HS. Generally referred to on forums as an IMG, international med grad.
Then there are non-US citizens who either did foreign or US MD school. They have the visa issue to contend with & are usually called FMG, foreign medical grad referring to the citizenship not the school
I know some Canadian kids who did UK med school right out of HS and whilst that was considered very prestigious back then, it was tense for their parents when they tried to get into a Canadian residency, pretty much family medicine was the route & some kids stayed in the UK and are still there.
With more and more schools opening larger classes for US MD degrees, there is less and less opportunity to sneak in as an IMG & FMG.
I guess some students are considered as both IMG (attending a med school outside US) and FMG (not a US citizen.)
However, some students are considered as FMG (not a US citizen) but not an IMG (attending a med school in US.) I guess the three students I referred to above are of this kind.
If I draw a Venn’s diagram with two overlapping circles: the left circle representing the IMG and the right circle representing the FMG, we will have three categories:
IMG but not FMG
IMG and FMG (the intersected or overlapped area between two circles.)
FMG but not IMG.
I hope I get the idea right.
I also learned that for a Canadian, if he does not attend a Canadian school (i.e., he is an IMG w.r.t. Canada’s Residence program), it is much harder to get a residency slot as compared to the case in US. This is because something like 95% of their residency slots go to the graduates of a Canadian med school. There are also much fewer (16 only?) med schools in Canada so it may be more competitive for a Canadian citizen to get into a Canadian med school than for a US citizen to get into a US med school.
Interesting to see Canada restricts J-1s for radiology.
I have met a few radiologists in Houston who have never been trained in US and came over from UK. I was surprised to learn that some teaching hospitals can hire people directly from abroad.
Over on SDN, there’s a lot of whining from Canadian med applicants, but it partly depends on where the applicant lives. Most seats (>85%) are reserved for in-province residents. (Like instate vs OOS in the US.) Good if you live in Saskatchewan; bad if you live in Ontario.
I heard the unions of nurses in a more progressive state could be quite strong. The residents in those states (occasionally doctors too) may have a harder life because the nurses may have more say about “how to run the system.”
Ebola cases in Dallas seem to have given the hospital a hard time - but on the other hand, the nurses in some hospitals could indeed be mistreated. It is hard to say who is right.
The ranking in the residency programs may not be the only factor to consider.
I’m pretty thrilled about the $1300 test + $275 flight + $200 hotel + $30 shuttle = $1800 I get to spend at the end of this interview season. I intend to study for probably 2 days and the flight there and the night before. I’m even more excited about spending 8 straight hrs doing histories and physicals for standardized patients (I’ve literally been doing that since week 1 of med school). But I’m most excited that the powers that be have deluded a few of my programs into believing this silly test is important enough to consider it when making the rank list; so me procrastinating it until Jan (does that seem “way too late”? It doesn’t to me, LOL) theoretically may impact my rank at 1-2 programs I really like! (Luckily my 2 favorite programs consider passing CS to be a formality and don’t use it in making their rank list).
I get it that I should just get used to jumping through hoops, but at this point I’m tired of taking tests, broke, and exhausted from all these interviews. Cut me some slack, licensing board!!! Kidding
The rank list is starting to come together. Should be a fun process!
D1 was smart about it. She took her CS before she even took her Step 2 CK just to get it out of the way back in May (Might have even been late April.) In her specialty, both Step 2 scores are something every PD wants to see before issuing IIs.
D1 had a cheap flight to the Left Coast, booked modest hotel near the test site, took her CS with a bunch of kids from Stanford and Yale and afterward they all went out to hit the local bars/clubs together. The next day D1 rented a convertible and headed out to the beach. (Her idea was if they’re going to make me jump thru hoops, at least I’m going to have good time doing it….)
Work hard; play harder. It’s the unofficial motto of her specialty.
In fact, she just told me a couple of days ago that to wait out the stretch between submitting her Match list and actually finding out if/where she matched, she’s going to Australia for 2 weeks to take surfing lessons, go diving in the Great Barrier Reef, attend a concert at the Sydney Opera House. Plus a whole list of other stuff. I told her to have fun and not to bring me any marmite.
A nearby Doubletree? DS almost reserved that one but at the last minute switched to Residence Inn upon our request (as we joined him there and had a fun trip after his CS test.) He walked back to the hotel at the end of the day after the test.
Wait, isn’t CS just a pass-fail test without a numeric or percentile score?
It is just p/f, but there is some kind of indication of how you are done in various little sections. I know that because D. said that everything was about average on hers except for the language, which was indicated as exceptionally good. I do not remember what they use, no score for sure. As somebody said above, I guess, the most important part of it is to check out English,…but do not forget to wash hands in between or you fail.
D. has no little break, she still has 7 interviews and she is very thankful for that. But the weather got considerably colder since December and we are just praying for no snow and good flying conditions. No driving any more for her, except for one local interview. Then, in Feb. she is back to rotations.
