Wharton Grad- Don't come to Penn/elite schools to go into finance and make money

College Search & Selection
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See title: I say this as a graduating senior going into finance. Seriously, if you are just coming here to get an elite job and are mostly or entirely full pay just… don’t. Go to your state school, have your parents put that in an index fund, and either it’ll make their lives way easier or yours or both. They will say they are happy to pay, because they are proud of you. Don’t believe them. It is far more money than you think at 18, and you will find money matters far more than this prestige crap. The expected value of the (slightly) better finance or consulting job you will on average get is simply not worth the stress and the incredible amount of already-earned, already-taxed money you are going to spend for a school that so openly is just about making money, and isn’t even a good value proposition for that.

This isn’t 1992 anymore. By far the most powerful industry employing people is tech. They care very little for this prestige nonsense- major in computer science at a good school (where you’ll be one of the smarter ones if you got into Penn!) you’ll have a shot at tech, quant finance, whatever, certainly much more than a non CIS/math/whatever major at Penn. And if you are going to go to Penn to do traditional finance or consulting and are full pay just… don’t. It’s a trap and an ego trip, and I say that as a hardcore finance person. There is zero argument the NPV of a marginally better finance job you’ll get from Penn is worth that much money. People are leaving IB and PE like crazy from the stress, and those are really the only way to even make the IRR come CLOSE to worth it, even ignoring the embedded misery, which you shouldn’t. You probably have a SMALL edge even adjusted for competition getting finance or consulting jobs but it’s small and just not worth it. And if you think coming to Penn is for intellectual reasons- there are people who find intellectual joy at Penn but it’s not the focus. The preprofessional toxicity is REAL. Ultimately most of Penn aside from that is just a show. And there’s NOTHING wrong with that- making money is serious. Half the poly Sci majors do try and transfer to Wharton, and there IS real depression from all the nonsense within Penn of people competing for miserable jobs just to feel like the investment their parents made will be worth something.

If you are paying much less than full price it’s different. But if you make enough to be (mostly) full pay- seriously, I wish someone had told me at 18 with that Wharton acceptance letter what this level of money really means. Penn isn’t Brown. You are entering into a net prsent value calc that just isn’t worth it unless you either get aid or your parents are so wealthy 240K is nothing. You want a finance exercise? Put into a calculator what 240K incremental difference of Penn to a good state school in an index fund will be in 40 years. And that’s without all the psychological harm the “prestigious” path of Penn will give you. I’ll be downvoted to hell but it’s worth it to me if someone like me who is 18 and naive about the cold, hard business of Penn realizes- if you are going to Penn to get a prestigous job and make money, which is what most of Penn focuses on, it just isn’t worth it.

You will quickly realize most friendships here are fake, that the administration is largely apathetic, and that mostly people at Penn are optimizing for preprofessional exit ops that, especially post tax, are nowhere near the amount of money this place costs. Please, don’t fall for this nonsense. I’ll be beginning my finance career shortly in a bid to make my parent’s investment worth something- be smarter than me. Go to an affordable school, be smart about recruiting, you will get a good JOB- which is actually all that is Penn is about. Good luck- I know I sound cynical, but I really do wish I’d read someone on this very subreddit who said the brutal truth when I was choosing between a full ride at a state school and this, and made 100% the wrong decision.

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What is your exit op from Wharton?

Did any friends from HS take the full ride public option and what were their exit ops? I assume you were a NMF to get a full ride.

There’s always a top MBA if you went to the public route but many Wharton BBAs eschew the MBA.

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Could you elaborate on what you meant when you said, “Penn isn’t Brown.” (ETA) In terms of finding a job in finance? In terms of school culture?…

I have an econ/finance kid. We find ourselves facing the decision you describe. In my heart I believe what you say is true, but it’s hard to turn against years of marketing & belief that prestige / prestigious schools will somehow make a difference.

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There’s a big difference in top quarter jobs at a place where one can go for free and where it costs full price. Also, if a top MBA is required for the “free college” person to get to the pay and responsibility of the top undergrad, one has to take the lost wages and MBA cost into consideration. If the “free college” is a top 50 national University, that’s a much different story.

Of course, a Big 4 accounting degree can lead to CFO roles or accounting partner positions. One can start with a Big 4 job from a wide variety of universities but hardly anyone from top schools (e.g., Wharton) start in accounting.

John Rainey is a Big 4 to CFO example. Baylor BBA…E&Y start…18 years at United/Continental rising to CFO…PayPal CFO for seven years…now hired as Walmart CFO.
https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/in/john-rainey-pypl/

At Wharton, only one went into accounting in the last class.

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This is either a phony post or rant from a person who had a very disappointing experience. DS is a current Wharton student. His experience is nothing like that posted above.

And I’m pretty sure this statement has never been uttered on the campus.

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I always thought that the true cost of an MBA is about 500k

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Please submit your net present value calculation over a given number of years for Wharton vs your own state school. Please include odds of receiving the job and long-term income potential over a 20 year period. My quick calculation results in a very different conclusion.

Regardless, I am sorry about the experience you seem to have had.

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I normally only lurk but don’t comment in the forums, but…. As a HR professional, I agree with OP. Thank you for your honesty, speak of the uncomfortable topic. This may get you into the first job, but all the subsequent years your income is dependent greatly on your experience, job type, location, industry, communications skills, and performance. ( latter is the most critical ). It’s hard to swallow when there’s pride and hope involved for a teen. As they should. Most people don’t realize until they are deep into their professional career, But OP is way ahead of his/her time and wanted to cut the time even shorter.

Paying full price of an Ivy is not an automatic winning ticket. And the high number of depression/anxiety I’ve witnessed is real. Many parents refuse to acknowledge and many students are too young to seek help when they started to self doubt or depressed. (Until recently years mental health was still a taboo in many places and nations). Knowing they might disappoint their parents will make the issue worse. Of course they are all top talents and eventually most will get on with their lives just as fine.

I believe OP was making a point that the ROI isn’t there if you are paying the full price ( unless $250k tuition or $500k pretax, isn’t a concern).

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Are you an HR professional for a bank? I understand OP’s point, and how “us people” on CC love our state schools… but the ROI for Wharton in finance and consulting is actually there. Won’t belabor my point but this may be one of the instances the numbers do favor a full pay private.

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Employers hiring from Penn and from Penn State will mostly pay the same for the same job. But many firms won’t come to Penn State. For example, I don’t think firms like Carlyle, KKR, Centerview etc come to Penn State. Likewise places like Sequoia are unlikely to hire from Penn State. Goldman is likely to take far more from Penn than from Penn State. Pointe 72 I doubt hires from Penn State. Or Bridgewater for that matter. Certainly SIG won’t hire from Penn State. And so on. And so forth.

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Just picking up this thread, my son is a junior and interested in finance/econ I have the same views as you do which is that while a lot of what OP said may be true the reality is that there are firms that only recruit from a handful of select elite colleges and that early bump for those kids often puts them on a different financial trajectory. Which schools did your kid apply to, my son’s goal is to develop his college list over the winter break

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Econ and finance are not interchangeable disciplines.

Many of the high end firms are looking for neither econ or finance (regardless of the school)- they are looking for Math and CS. And some of the high end firms are eager to find geology, philosophy majors (who can attend a mini-MBA and learn enough finance in two weeks) vs. hiring finance majors.

Perhaps your son can take a step back. Besides getting his ticket punched- what is he looking for in his education? Econ has a LOT of theory; Finance is pretty tactical. A rigorous Econ program is going to be very math heavy; a rigorous finance program really requires great HS computational skills but not much math beyond that.

Before you worry about recruiting (for a HS junior), maybe clarify what his true interests are???

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Yes - good point. As it stands now he is interested in “investments” and in doing something that involves a lot of math but he does not want to major in math or physics or CS though he is in AP courses for all 3 this year. Next year he wants to take the next level of Calc and AP Stats. For a kid wanting to major in finance or econ I think the brand of the college matters much more than a kid who wants to major in chemistry, physics, math, CS etc. Of course longer term outcomes are entirely based on each person’s own drive, ambition and a healthy slice of luck

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I’d amend your statement- it isn’t the brand of the college, it’s the rigor (or at least the reputed rigor). It’s one of the reasons why colleges like Swarthmore (which is rigorous- it is hard to "phone it in’ at Swarthmore) does so well in recruiting. Their “brand” is not well known outside of the region, or among academics, but it punches above its weight in finance related recruiting.

There are a bunch of “not well known brands” that fall into this category.

There are also colleges which do well in finance recruiting, despite not being particularly rigorous (of course an individual student can craft a very tough program for his or herself, just speaking in generalities.) By and large, both the big institutions (the banks) and the small organizations (hedge funds, VC’s, PE firms) know what’s what. You can get hired to do private wealth management from one of the 'not terribly rigorous colleges" but couldn’t get an interview to do something very quant. And the bar is pretty low for what used to be “stockbroker” jobs-- essentially the customer facing retail roles-- since there is very little demand for “stock picking” in the investment world, it’s all a computer model and the “broker” just inputs “65 year old male with low risk tolerance and a defined benefit pension which he’ll start collecting in a year” and the machine spits out the asset allocation!

Your son has time.

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Most undergraduate economics majors require at most single variable calculus and basic statistics, and most students of such have pre-professional “business” leanings. A few colleges’ economics departments offer greater math options, and students preparing for PhD study in economics should choose such greater math options and take substantially more advanced math and statistics. Even fewer colleges’ standard economics majors require math more advanced than single variable calculus.

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Great points and agree that the nature and skillsets for different finance roles has changed and will continue to change, infact that is true for every profession

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Aside from the specific Penn-bashing (there are engineering students, pre-meds, nursing students, business majors, etc at most colleges, and Penn has a wide variety of liberal arts majors too, not to mention their unique majors such as archaeology and folklore), this guy is RIGHT, all across the board. It is not worth full-pay to go to any of these prestigious, big name, highly selective schools for undergrad, when compared to one’s flagship state U, unless one is shooting for certain very elite careers, such as becoming the editor of the NYT. Most careers can be turbo-charged by a graduate degree from an elite institution (law degree from Harvard/Yale, MBA from Harvard, Wharton, etc).

This is why I keep saying make a financial safety, consider the overall cost, consider what that now 320K could do for students and their families if invested in an index fund instead of paid to the elite college. The only way that the elite college is worth it to most families is if they are receiving substantial fin aid. For some poor families, the student will get a better fin package from the elite school than from their local state college or state U.

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People make dumb financial decisions all the time. Why the ire over paying for college?

I have a neighbor who just flattened his backyard, ripped out the existing landscaping, and installed a commercial grade pizza oven and brick courtyard. He discovered halfway through the process (despite warnings from neighbors) that he was encroaching on a wetlands and just because he found a guy willing to pour concrete, that didn’t mean it was legal.

So now he has to rip out half of what he’s done- and start over again. I have no idea how much it costs, but trust me- the ROI on something like this in my area is zero.

I’ve got friends installing decorator/commercial grade kitchens in modest three bedroom split level homes; people buying their 17 year olds brand new Jeeps for Xmas; people spending 20K on a brand new Rolex which will lose half its value when you walk out of the store.

Are you going to go on a crusade to tell all of them they should be putting that money in an index fund?

Believe it or not, there are lots of people who live modestly, who have saved for decades, and fully understand the “alternative uses” of their tuition money and yet make the decision to pay for college when there were cheaper options.

My kids didn’t apply or go to Penn, and they were never interested in finance (or in making the most money possible after college) but I consider our “investment” in their education worth every penny.

So no, this guy is not “right across the board”. He’s right that going to ANY college with the assumption that it’s the Golden Ticket to a life of wealth and affluence is a mistake. But that doesn’t mean going to elite U is a mistake vs. your own flagship state U.

Do you know anyone affluent enough to pay full freight for college who is too dumb (or financially ignorant) to know they could invest the cash instead?

And yes- my neighbors understand finance. They don’t value the same things I do and that’s fine. But as long as they aren’t asking me to pay for their dumb economic choices, ain’t my business!

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OP made one inflammatory post and then never reappeared.

Let’s hope he/she went on to more productive or lucrative endeavors that satisfied them on an emotional, intellectual and financial level or we can conclude they were the type of creature that lives below a bridge.

Bottom line every student and family has to look introspectively as to the monetary and intangible value they assign to their kids educational options. There is no right or wrong it comes down to unique circumstances, personal value systems and outcomes. Any debate that seeks to reach a general conclusion is futile.

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**unless one is shooting for certain very elite careers, such as becoming the editor of the NYT. **

fwiw, the previous editor of the NYT was a college dropout… from Columbia, to be sure…
and the current editor went to Harvard.

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