<p>Agreed, and I won’t even go into my own personal, anecdotal stories of what it was like to grow up the child of hippies (baby boomers) except to say it was a lot like being raised by wolves, and leave it at that.</p>
<p>The only reason anyone is even mentioning the boomer entitlement is because of the way some of them, on this thread, have attacked the entitlement mentality of this graduating generation, who do face the bills of their parents in a way no generation has ever faced before. I think a little good will should be extended, as at some point they will be in power, and whether or not they will be well disposed to these me-generation elders may have something to do with how they are treated when they are starting out.</p>
<p>the tos prohibits repetetive posting, or I would repost the link I posted in #203. It shows the evidence that this downturn is deeper and more devastating and more protracted than any any of us has faced since the great depression. And, so far, as far as I can see, there hasn’t been one policy proposal which is actually going to jump start the economy for these kids, as the boomers go off on their daydream world of EPA regulations and other regulations, more regulations, and tax policy which is so entirely unpredictable as to make planning an impossibility for almost all small businesses.</p>
<p>I’m a gen-Xer and in complete agreement with Steve on this one</p>
<p>I don’t think the current generation is lazy in the slightest, but I think they definitely do have unrealistic expectations</p>
<p>for all the recent college grads on here who are complaining that you can’t possibly make ends meet, that your lives are so bad… did you have a meal yesterday? did you have a bed to sleep in? do you know how much better you have it than soooooo many people in this world, than soooooo many people in this country? </p>
<p>There are people out there who don’t know where they are sleeping tonight…who don’t know when they’ll be able to feed their child another meal…</p>
<p>My son is 17 and has definitely been raised somewhat ‘entitled’, I remember when the Sony Playstation 3 came out - what did it originally cost? $800? And when he asked for one and I laughed, he continually nagged that EVERYONE else was getting one and that he’d be the ONLY person who didn’t have an $800 video game system… he never did get one, he got a used xBox off of eBay instead…he’s got a REALLY frugal mom. </p>
<p>But if he ever started whining about how bad his life is, I’d buy him a 1 way plane ticket to a third world country, so maybe he’d start appreciating what he does have.</p>
<p>tenisghs–Major metro’s can be devastated by closing of businesses too…Detroit anyone–or heck, Michigan in general…</p>
<p>Ok, just a specific example of what I was talking about in my last post-the thread about Econ/Math at Swathmore vs full ride at UMass–almost everyone is saying “Swathmore” because the OP said his parents have that money in the bank. In our generation our parents had that money in the bank but it was NOT a given that WE were entitled to use that money for our college education. That money was our PARENT’S money and if they chose to help, great, most didn’t however. That is how and why our parents are comfortable now. They didn’t take $200,000 out of their savings to pay for college, they kept that money and let it grow so they could pay for their retirement years, health insurance, etc. THAT is what is different with this generation–and the parents of this generation–is that they are owed or owe it to the kids to pay for whatever school the kid wants to attend.</p>
<p>Spend some time in the library listening to them talk and seeing what
they do. Spend some time on the bus listening to their conversations
Look at their waistlines and the products that they carry with them.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>In the 1990s, the goal of the Texas school system was that at least
half of high-school graduates would understand Algebra. Our schools
are failing at an unprecedented level - how do you think that affects
colleges and universities? How do you not learn algebra in 12 years?</p>
<p>“According to Complete College America, a national nonprofit group,
51.7 percent of students entering a two-year college enrolled in
remediation. And 19.9 percent of those at four-year colleges did the
same.”</p>
<p>Here’s a little exercise for you: ask your class if they would take
a job at McDonalds and why or why not. My daughter hears this from
her classmates - that they wouldn’t take a job at McDonalds. She
asked me about working at McDonalds and I told her about it - it’s
a great company with great growth opportunities.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Would you say that all college kids are great? Most college kids
are great? Some college kids are great? My son tutored math and
science for five years and he had a lot of stories for me.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Some of that is policy. In normal markets, prices are allowed to
clear. It is incredibly painful for asset holders. We’ve tried for
several year to block the clearance process which has delayed the
recovery. Why is housing so expensive? If housing were a lot cheaper,
more could afford it and would create transactions in the economy
that would create jobs.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Inflate or die.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>There are tech companies in little, out-of-the way places in New
Hampshire. I’ve seen them on job searches. I have no idea why they are
there but cost, quality of life may be something that the owner wanted
when founding the company. I think that they have more trouble
attracting candidates but there are these decent jobs out there that
are easy to overlook. The fun quotient is probably low for college
grads. The ones that I know want to work in big cities.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>The two cities that I mentioned earlier are doing reasonably well at
attracting small tech startups. One has a public university the
graduates a lot of STEM majors (BS, MS, Phd) and provides an educated
workforce.</p>
<p>The other city has a public university and several private colleges.
The cost of living is low and it is near a regional airport. There
are several other old mill cities in New England that are doing far
worse and it would be interesting to understand why some cities are
able to reinvent themselves.</p>
<p>Worcestor, MA has WPI and Clark University but Worcestor hasn’t been
able to improve over several decades.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Our car has 240K miles on it. I sleep on the floor about half the
time. I’m waiting to get the twin bed back from the kids’ apartment (I
bought it when I moved out for the last time about 27 years ago), so
that I don’t have to sleep on the floor. Not that sleeping on the
floor is all that bad. Son sleeps on an air mattress in his apartment
right now.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>What do you think a comparison of obesity rates between college
students now and those in the early 80s would show? On my trip to the
college library, I pass by a candy machine and a soda machine. What
do you think I see? Are these machines seldom used or frequently quite
busy?</p>
<p>When I walk out the door of the building, what to I see? Or rather,
what do I inhale? Yes, it’s a cluster of students standing near the
building entrance smoking. Cigarettes are pretty expensive, right?
So is buying bottled water, soft drinks, chips and candy out of a
vending machine.</p>
<p>BTW, this is not just a problem with college students. But you would
think that college students with difficult finances wouldn’t be
spending their money inefficiently.</p>
<p>I’m with Steve as well- unrealistic. That doesn’t make someone a bad person; that doesn’t make them spoiled and entitled. It does mean that there is a fundamental mis-match between the kind of jobs these kids are likely to be offered, and their expectations. I hear all the time, “They expect me to work overtime without paying me for it”. To me- that’s unrealistic. If you are in a managerial or professional role, you are not an hourly wage earner. You do not get overtime. Yes- if you’re punching a timeclock at Target and you are not getting paid for your overtime, that’s a violation of the law and you should find a public interest lawyer to take on your case. And yes, there are unscrupulous employers who try to find a shady way around the law.</p>
<p>But for the most part, it is just unrealistic to expect to be in a professional role and to work a 9-5 day with overtime. That’s not realistic. A parent posted earlier about the late nights her kid worked during a summer job- that’s reality. If your kid gets a summer job with a consulting firm or a bank or an accounting firm, look around- their colleagues are working 60-80 hours a week (more at peak times) and no, nobody gets overtime except for the clerical workers.</p>
<p>So that’s why I think there’s a disconnect. That perfect entry level job which has advancement opportunities, training, benefits, great salary, interesting industry, fab co-workers- doesn’t exist. Get your foot in the door; work hard (very hard); find a way to keep a roof over your head.</p>
<p>My parents and their friends, baby boomers, have always lived waay beyond their means (def not saving pennies). Do they have a nice house? Yes. Do they have a yard, multiple cars, big TV,…etc? Yes. Did they buy me and my siblings our first cars (used)? Yes. Can they afford to have all that on their salaries and in their financial position? No. Do they continue to live this way? For the most part although have cut back on eating out. Is it enough? No. </p>
<p>Congress has happily extended more and more credit so that the “american dream” can be realized by everyone even though incomes haven’t necessarily increased by the proportion needed for the american dream to be sustainable. </p>
<p>Obviously this has lead to a lot of problems that will be passed on to future generations. We, as educated by our parents, were told to go to school and work hard and then we can be succesful and achieve the “dream”; this is becoming harder to attain even if working much harder than our parents did at our age. </p>
<p>This probably explains why some older generation feel that we are entitled, because in some ways we are - but only because that’s what we were told our entire lives that if we remain persistent, follow our dreams, and do X, Y, and Z we’ll do swell. </p>
<p>And honestly after forking over 20K/year for tuition, you expect some payback at least in a job with good growth opportunities even if the wages are lower than what you could have acheived by going straight into the workforce. After college, my mom happily became a waitress and traveled; not even concerned with starting her career right away. </p>
<p>For many of us, student loans and the competitive nature of the workforce (ie HR’s profound reaction to resume “gaps”) dictate that we have to start our careers right away and at a certain pay level; and many of us will work 50-80 hour work weeks and will not get those great retirement plans that older generations got. </p>
<p>The boomers are doing a decent job of taking care of their elders,
right?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I think that letting the housing market clear would be a big, first
step. But no politician would ever propose that. Well, maybe Ron Paul.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>One of my coworkers lives in a community with a lot of Asians and his
son was accepted to the in-state flagship along with a few other
schools. I recall the fights over the phone over what my coworker
would fund. Going to the in-state flagship was frowned upon by his
peers in school as it was beneath them. He told his father that he
would go to the in-state flagship if he got him a new car. Is that
entitlement?</p>
<p>His second son is picking schools now - he’s going to pick an
out-of-state school that’s giving him less than in-state tuition
rates. I think that it’s a great school. This son also wanted to go to
a status school that he was accepted at but the quality of the
education was no better than the one that he was accepted to at about
1/3rd the cost. Dad’s picking up the full cost of both of their
educations. I suspect that he may fund the younger son’s graduate
studies. He isn’t funding the older son’s graduate studies.</p>
<p>Actually, I still work, and H still works, and, at this point, if you include schoolwork and jobs, College kid works, way more than 40 hours a week.</p>
<p>Kiddo goes 10-10 most days, BEFORE she starts her homework.</p>
<p>But, why does my kid, when we are full pay, know this? Because she was born knowing this? No.</p>
<p>The kids have a disconnect because they were made ridiculous promises.</p>
<p>BC, the kids I talk to have considerable “skin in the game” in this education thing, and none of them would turn down work. I don’t have to ride a bus with them to know this. If you are encountering a different type of kid, then that is your experience, but not mine. It won’t matter how many places you tell me to search for this imaginary kid, I’m too busy to go look for him/her. But, thank you.</p>
<p>“And, so far, as far as I can see, there hasn’t been one policy proposal which is actually going to jump start the economy for these kids, as the boomers go off on their daydream world of EPA regulations and other regulations, more regulations, and tax policy which is so entirely unpredictable as to make planning an impossibility for almost all small businesses.” </p>
<p>That is so right. Though I don’t know if it’s the boomers to blame on this one, many of those creating and supporting the policies designed to stagnate and stifle small business are Gen-Xers.</p>
<p>My dad just called me the other day (he’s in his eighties) and told me how much it angered him that people are blaming this mess on him and his generation. He told me, it sure wasn’t our fault. We both worked our entire adult lives, contributing to social security and medicare. This is our money. And we have exercised constantly, had a strict diet for so many decades, have barely utilized medicare (they also have a company HMO that they pay for). We’ve paid into this system so much more than we’ve taken. </p>
<p>They also saved their money, paid off their house, have no debt and are not a burden on anyone. So I see his point about resenting people saying “they” are the problem.</p>
Part of this is just being young. It’s hard to envision how quickly a few years can pass when you’re 22. Our younger selves are much more likely to live in a particular moment. It’s not till you’ve got your adult feet under you that you can look back and see that what seemed like forever was just a very short time. It’s also a generation that does expect immediate gratification and is used to a very fast pace of life. After graduation from college, those dues paying years can feel like they move very slowly because dues paying is all about slow movement forward and less about the big ta-da of acceptances and graduations.</p>
<p>blossom - great post (I hear all the time, “They expect me to work
overtime without paying me for it”. To me- that’s unrealistic. If you
are in a managerial or professional role, you are not an hourly wage
earner.)</p>
<p>I’ve been called at 1:00 AM before to get on a plane the next day to
spend a few weeks diagnosing customer problems onsite. And yes, it
helps to have a passport. How’s that for disrupting your life?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I think that a lot of the current generation struggles with these
problems.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>We never sent our kids to school. Many parents (though a fairly small
percentage) take the same approach. The work hard part still applies.
I’d say that my son worked harder in school than I did but I’d say
that he probably doesn’t work as hard as I did in my first
professional job but I was a workaholic back then. I do recall working
48 hours straight at that job and working lots of nights - that was
harder back then as there wasn’t remote access.</p>
<p>On a Social Security COLA RATE - adjusted basis (first chart I quickly
found), son makes quite a bit more in his first job than I made in
mine. It feels that way too when I look at his income and what he can
afford compared to what I could afford when I started out.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I never told my kids this. I always taught them that life was hard.
I actually didn’t realize how hard it was until my son looked for
work but the message of years gone by, both in word and deed, sunk
through, at least for him. My wife came from third-world poverty
and displays certain behaviors from that background despite her not
living in poverty today. The kids look at the behaviors as odd.</p>
<p>I just did a search for jobs in our metro area using any career field and “entry level”, there were over 5000 jobs that showed up across a large number of industries. Some had salary information, some did not. Some were jobs that pay $15 but at great companies with advancement potential. At $15/hour you would need a roommate to live in our area, but so what. Did the same search for Detroit out of curiosity and over 5000 jobs showed up there. Some of them were nursing, business, sales, marketing, etc., a couple finance jobs paying $19/hour, etc.</p>
<p>Funny, but the above shows you missed the part where I mentioned they grew up in wartorn China of the 1930’s and '40s…well before air conditioning was mainstream even in the USA…much less China of that period or Taiwan in the 1950’s. </p>
<p>You also seemed to miss the following below:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In short…when they saw that the lifestyle in my first apartment situation even remotely resembled what they experienced in their financially constrained childhood/young adulthood…they were upset as they felt their efforts to immigrate and raise the younger generation in the US were seemingly for naught because they NEVER WANTED US TO LIVE REMOTELY LIKE THEY DID.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>From my own experiences as a college kid in the ‘90s and from older cousins’ experiences from attending college from the late '70s till late 80’s…the Spring Break as you described has been mainstreamed in US pop culture…but wasn’t the reality for most undergrads…unless they came from upper-middle class or wealthier homes and/or were financially foolhardy. </p>
<p>Only older cousin who went on those spring break trips was the one from the wealthier side of the family and not academically inclined. Everyone else was more like yours truly…spent the week studying or pursuing paying gigs…academic tutoring and computer teching in my case. </p>
<p>From what I’ve seen of the millennials…they’re much more like most of the cousins and myself than the wealthy party/beer double major older cousin. </p>
<p>Moreover, keep in mind that there were party-hearty kids who went down to Florida or other exotic luxurious vacations back in the 60’s and 70’s…only thing that changed is that it has been mainstreamed so much in the mass media since the 1980’s despite the fact this activity is still mostly the preserve of kids from upper/upper-middle class families. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Strange…I knew older Gen-X cousins who were like that and from what I’ve heard from older folks of the WWII/Silent generation…many boomer kids were the same way…they just chose to conveniently forget the spoiled brats/their own spoiled behaviors once they became middle-aged in order to be in the position to start castigating Gen X and the millennials in the mass media and IRL. </p>
<p>There’s always the spoiled brat contingent in each generation. One shouldn’t extend one’s experiences with one or a few to condemn an entire generation.</p>
<p>My experience is just as anecdotal as yours.</p>
<p>What matters more: the statistics on larger populations of college
students. Spring Break is major business today, no?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Yup. My mother’s the same way though I don’t think that she’s aware that
her generation is being blamed with the problems that other generations
are seeing.</p>
<p>One-third own their homes free and clear. That’s a lot of responsible
people out there. It doesn’t sell ads to talk about them.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I see this in our son - the transition from school to working in a job
where he is learning like crazy and getting things done and making
accomplishments. Big change in attitude and outlook. Doing the job hunt
is a drag but getting over it into something that you love makes really
helps you forget how bad things were.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I was working out while posting - didn’t catch everything.</p>
<p>Why would they expect air conditioning? Most of my father’s family
were killed in the 1950s.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I’m surprised that they knew what living in the US was like back then.
I spent several weeks in China (8 cities) and there were a few places
that had never seen black people before (tour group). They couldn’t
believe that I couldn’t speak Chinese - many tested me. We visited
many factories and the wages were something like 8 to 30 dollars a
month. We visited the residences - basically concrete structures
with one-room living. I think that the people in Beijing and Nanjing
were more knowledgeable about the US and other countries but there
were others that had far less exposure to outsiders.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Stats from a website on Spring Break:</p>
<p>1959: 20K students in Fort Lauderdale.
1985: 370,000 students showed up.
Today: Panama City, FL: 500K, South Padre Island: 150K, Cancun: 100K
(total figure is 1.5M).</p>
<p>Yup, it’s amazing how we all forget how bratty we and our peers were once. Or at least how ungrateful our parents thought we were! My parents did not need the latest video game, of course, but it sounded like in the big band era the thing to do was go out dancing every Saturday night. Yet my parents never thought I should go out (meaning spend money for entertainment) that often. Hmmm.</p>
<p>Careerbuilder gave me 974 postings within 50 miles of my podunk town and that was excluding national/regional listings.</p>
<p>When adding “entry level” as a keyword, it got me down to 110.</p>
<p>Cobrat: </p>
<p>I was definitely not calling my son a spoiled brat. But children/teens don’t really know the value of money. You don’t really fully understand it until you realize how many hours you have to work to keep your heat on for the winter. My son’s prom was over the weekend. Fortunately I have a son. I was talking to some of the mothers and almost literally fell over when I heard they had spend > $600 on a prom dress. $600??? Are you kidding me??? For a dress, they’ll probably only wear once. And yes, it is the parents that provide those items for their children and then the children grow into adulthood expecting that they should be able to go out an buy a $600 dress for special occasions.</p>
<p>My son has actually learned from my frugality. He didn’t get into his first choice of schools, so when choosing among the others, he had the choice of going to several top ranked engineering schools, but even with aid they would have cost between $20-30K. It would have been difficult, but we could have made any of those choices work. Instead, he opted to take the full tution offer from 'Bama. We turned down all the loans for this year, so he’ll finish year 1 debt free, hopefully with an internship or co-op along the way, he’ll be able to finish college with money in the bank. I felt bad turning down offers from very respected schools knowing that it was something I could provide for my son with a little sacrifice, but he convinced me that the 'Bama offer was best for him and when he graduates with money to put a deposit down on an apartment and car when his classmates are struggling with their student loan payments, I’ll know he made the right choice.</p>
<p>But that same son doesn’t understand why I can’t just go out and buy a new TV or take a vacation or buy a new car… He knows how much I make, but the concept of how much of that is left after the bills are paid and thinking about and planning for the future and making sure you have enough for emergency situations isn’t something that has sunk in as a 17 year old.</p>
</p>