100% need based colleges strong in English/social sciences (esp. LACs)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi, these boards have been extremely helpful as we try to narrow down the college search! Thanks to all who graciously share their wisdom and experience!</p>

<p>We are searching for colleges (especially LACs) with strong English/Social Sciences depts. that promise 100% need-based financial aid (hopefully low on the loans). Our EFC is under $6,000.</p>

<p>S isn’t too specific on what he wants in a college. He is OK with small/large, suburban/rural, university/LAC east/west/midwest (perhaps not south if it is really hot/humid). His strength is his writing. He is also interested in history, psychology or media (communication). He excels in music (sax, bassoon, 4 years of music theory) but doesn’t want to major in it. He enjoys writing, photography, trout fishing, baseball. He isn’t into frats, drinking etc. I would prefer that he doesn’t go to an ultra liberal campus.</p>

<p>Frankly, our main concern is financing his college education with the least amount of debt as we have two other sons that will be in college shortly. S would prefer to not go to our local state college (he goes to a public charter school held on campus so he’s already taking classes there).</p>

<p>We are Asian and live in a rural, somewhat poor farm community in California where most kids don’t make it past the junior college level.</p>

<p>So far, we are considering Pomona, Occidental, St. Olaf and a couple of the UCs. </p>

<p>I am also submitting this on the Parent's Forum.</p>

<p>Any advice, suggestions would be appreciated! </p>

<hr>

<p>Stats
SATS: 800 verbal, 710 writing, 680 math
4.1 weighted GPA
Class rank: 4 / 65 </p>

<p>AP Scores: Language 5, US History 4
(S taking AP Calculus AB, Literature, and Government AP test in spring)</p>

<p>College classes
History 1/World History, Biology/Zoology, Latin 131T, Geology, Spanish 1A</p>

<p>ECs
Band: 9,10,11,12
Pit Orchestra 10
Orchestra: 11. 12
College Band: 12
Yearbook: 11, 12
Newspaper: 12
National Junior Classical League: 10, 11, 12
Baseball: 9, 10. 11, 12
Key Club: 10, 11
LIFE Club: 9, 10</p>

<p>Awards:
Honor Band: 9, 10, 11 (principle bassoon)
Honor Orchestra 11
Soloist (sax), 2005 NY Band Festival at Carnegie Hall
NJCL NATIONAL LATIN EXAM, Magna cum laude certificate
National Merit Commended Student</p>

<p>Employment:
Works on the family fish farm 20 – 30 hours/week during the summer</p>

2

<p>Kenyon, Middlebury, Colgate, Hamilton, Bowdoin, Vassar, Carleton, Colby, Bates Oberlin, Macalester, Bard</p>

<p>You might be after merit aid, in addition to need-based.</p>

<p>He sounds like a great student. You must be proud.</p>

3

<p>All of the schools you mention would be good choices, although I don't know if Occidental and St. Olaf are 100% need.</p>

<p>Swarthmore would be an excellent fit in every regard except that you might think it is too "liberal". Generally speaking, most schools that meet the characteristics you mention are going to on the "liberal" side of the ledger.</p>

<p>Swarthmore has a very high percentage of Asian-American students (16%) and is a comfortable, welcoming environment for Asian-American students. In fact, the high Asian-American enrollment is probably one of the more noticeable aspects of Swarthmore's campus "culture". In part due to its high minority enrollment, Swarthmore has less of a drinking scene than the national average and than most comparably selective LACs.</p>

<p>I think your son's background would be viewed favorably by admissions. Working on the family fish farm could make for a stand-out application essay.</p>

<p>Very, very strong social sciences across the board. Very committed to 100% need financial aid with low loan components.</p>

4

<p>Thanks guys!</p>

<p>Yes, we are very proud of him. He is a good all around kid and has worked hard at school. </p>

<p>Although we are Chinese American, we live in a town that is predominantly Hispanic. I don't think S relates to the "Asian" part of who he is except that he likes Chinese food!</p>

<p>Fish Farm: everyone thinks that is so cool, that we live and work on a fish farm......everyone, that is, except our kids! They think that makes them so "different" from all their friends and that they are the only ones that have to work during the summer doing manual labor! It has been a good experience for them. I know they will have fond memories......</p>

<p>In my research, Occidental and St Olaf appear 100% need based. Hope that is correct.</p>

<p>A part of me wants S to stay in California to go to school (because I will miss him if he goes out of state), but he is the type of person that needs to see the world and all that it has to offer. His dad is that way, too (RPCV, Papua New Guinea).</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks again! I will research the colleges you both mentioned.</p>

<p>Anyone else? Suggestions?</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
In my research, Occidental and St Olaf appear 100% need based. Hope that is correct.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They may be. However, generally speaking, the language in the college viewbook and the reality may be very different. In other words, not all "100% need" schools offer the same financial package. They can't offer what they don't have so, in general, schools with very large endowments like Pomona and Swarthmore tend to offer larger packages to "need" students" and tend to offer smaller loan components.</p>

<p>Given your son's geographic background from a less affluent farming community, I would be a little hestitant to seek out colleges that cater exclusively to a wealthy, white suburban clientele. I would tend to favor schools that are at least comfortable for someone from a less "preppy" environment. Two statistical measures that can shed some light on a school's culture in that regard are the percentage of students who qualify for financial aid (close to 50% is good diversity for an elite college) and the percentage of minority students. I would look for a minimum of 30 percent non-white or non-US, with closer to 40% being an indication of strong diversity -- although this can vary a bit depending on the geographic location. For example, schools in California and the northeast have larger minority populations to draw from than schools in the southeast and midwest and thus have the potential to achieve more diversity.</p>

<p>As a side benefit, national statistics show that schools with whiter and wealthier students tend to have more problems with heavy drinking scenes -- something that your son wants to avoid. Large minority enrollments and more socio-economic diversity tend to correllate with lower drinking rates on campus with African-Americans and Asian-Americans being the two groups with the lowest heavy drinking rates in national surveys.</p>

<p>The reason that your son's labor on the family fish farm can be a positive on the application is that many elite colleges are making a concerted effort to expand their recruiting beyond the "trust fund" crowd. I think that emphasizing the nature of your community and your son's employment can be a plus in terms of admissions, where standing out from the crowd and bringing a different perspective to campus is valued by admissions officers.</p>

6

<p>Claremont McKenna, Whitman</p>

7

<p>Welcome FresnoMom, a couple of observations - first "communications", in the sense of a major, won't be found at many small LACs, but strong writing skills and a love of history will hold up well at LACs - so if he is interested in communications as a major, he may need larger places, but if he is more interested in improving his communication skills, then LACs are the way to go.
Another suggestion, as he looks outside of California, some schools near air hubs will be significantly cheaper to attend and to travel to than more rural schools - I say this because some of the best LACs are rural or ruralish.
Third, since he seems to have an interest in classics, look at some of the Catholic schools - they will be nurturing, small, and often have good classics departments. Many of them may not meet 100% of need, but some may have merit aid that will make up for it. If you repost on the Parents Forum, or Carolyn reads your post, she is an expert on smaller West Coast schools, and might be able to give advice about which ones would consider him merit aid material, so that overall his need could be met.</p>

<p>4th - strong English/writing schools that he should at least look at - Kenyon, Sewanee and Middlebury - I'm not sure that any of them is the best choice for him because of travel issues (not sure about money), but anyone interested in writing should at least consider the first 2.</p>

<p>Another school he should consider is Davidson College - "strive to meet 100% of need", it is an intellectual school, also athletic (think Williams or Dartmouth) conservative and close to an airport hub (Charlotte), pretty humid for about the first 2 weeks of school then fabulous weather until T'giving. It is an appropriate "reachy school" for someone with St. Olaf on the list. The downsides are distance from home, lack of diversity (although St. Olaf will not be that diverse a place either) both ethnic and monetary, and a small frat presence. It does not have the truly outstanding music opportunities of St O, but it has good opportunities, and music would be less competitive I think.</p>

8

<p>Cangel:</p>

<p>Although all four are excellent schools, my concern with Kenyon, Middlebury, Sewannee, and Davidson is that they all cater to an extremely white, wealthy, customer base. Not just a little bit. These are four of the whitest schools in the country.</p>

<p>I think that, being Asian-American and coming from a farm community in California with a heavy Hispanic population, these schools could be culturally jarring. When I attended a white and wealthy elite college back in the stone age, the students who struggled the most (not academically) were students from lower socio-economic communities. Several left and few ever felt like they really fit in. So, I'm sensitive to that issue.</p>

<p>An Asian-American from a wealthy prep school, growing up in Pacific Palisades? Fine, no problem. But, Fresno is a different world than some of these schools.</p>

9

<p>IDad and I crossposted - some of his points in his last post about diversity and schools that cater to "white, suburban, wealthy" are what I'm dancing around with Davidson and St. Os. He will provide some geographic diversity, etc to a number of small LACs, the problem is will he be comfortable going there - and that might require a visit. Occidental, Pomona, not a problem, St. O's and Davidson, maybe a problem.</p>

<p>What about Univ of Chicago? Too urban, it is a place that I think of as been almost apolitical, but it doesn't exactly have a LAClike atmosphere.</p>

<p>A few more SAT points, and he might be in the low Ivy range, that would solve the money problem and open up some schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Amherst - each one though has something glaring that doesn't fit your description, so it could become a trade-off issue. A ood writer from a lower income background, living on a fish farm, with a set of 700 SATs, strong curriculum, and an A average sounds like a pretty good shot (not a lock, mind you, but a shot) at some very selective, and highly endwed schools, which would meet his financial need.</p>

10

<p>How excited is he about going far away to school? Pomona and Occidental may be better in the long run than going cross country</p>

<p>IDad loves Swat, and it is a wonderful school, very, very high on my daughter's list, but it is really liberal. My daughter had it and St. Olaf's on the same list at one time, and it and Davidson on the same list, but many kids wouldn't consider them together. Maybe you should elaborate on liberal/conservative - Pepperdine is just about right, or USC-type conservative, or just as long as its not Berkeley, its OK?</p>

11

<p>hi guys,</p>

<p>What great responses! I need some time to digest all you said!</p>

<p>Regarding S and being Asian.... he will be OK in a predominantly white environment. Although we live in a Hispanic community, he goes to a church that is predominantly white and his school is 70% white (he goes to a public charter school in a neighboring town). </p>

<p>I don't think S will have a problem if he went to a college that attracted mostly affluent kids. We live a simple lifestyle but we are not poor by any means. Our kids often say that we don't have such and such like other families, but that is our choice. However, if the whole college culture is about being affluent, then perhaps he won't fit in cuz that's not how we raised him. Hope I am saying this right. No offense to anyone.</p>

<p>thanks again for all the help. My head is spinning.....</p>

12

<p>Hi Cangel</p>

<p>Thanks for all your help.</p>

<p>The whole liberal vs conservative thing is not a big deal. S would probably be comfortable anywhere except for very conservative (i.e. Pepperdine). Just as a mom, I would prefer that there wasn't a big drug culture....being over-protective, I guess.</p>

<p>Several of my relatives are UCB alumni and I have two nephews that currently attend there. Actually, UCB is on S's list....perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned "nothing ultra liberal" as I'm just confusing everyone.....sorry</p>

<p>Is son excited about going far away to school?? I think so, although, he would be happy going to a college in CA, too. I didn't know if I was limiting S's chances by just searching for CA colleges. Actually, when we talk about possible colleges, he does ask about the fishing. Now, this is not really important to him, like he HAS to go to a college that has fly fishing nearby, but he does ask. :-)</p>

<p>Also, although he is a bright kid, and he likes learning about different subjects, he doesn't like to spend all his time studying. I think it would be nice if the environment was such that the kids had time to have fun and goof off.</p>

<p>Thanks for taking an interest in my S !</p>

13

<p>"They may be. However, generally speaking, the language in the college viewbook and the reality may be very different. In other words, not all "100% need" schools offer the same financial package. They can't offer what they don't have so, in general, schools with very large endowments like Pomona and Swarthmore tend to offer larger packages to "need" students" and tend to offer smaller loan components."</p>

<p>This is mostly a bunch of bleep. Occidental has more than double the number of Pell Grant recipients (those with family incomes under $40k a year) than either Swarthmore or Pomona - actually more than both combined --and they've made it affordable for ALL of them, or they wouldn't be there. Occidental is much, much more diverse than either of them. In fact, on the whole among LACs, those with the higher endowments tend to be less diverse than those with lower ones - they actually choose to spend their dollars in other ways. </p>

<p>But with so many hundreds of wonderful colleges and universities in the country, and your son having so much to offer (he has a shot at virtually every college in the country), you probably should think a little bit more about the large v. small, rural v. urban, etc. issues, so your questions can be better addressed. The top 50 or so LACs (those which meet 100% of need), and 50 uni.s in the same category draw their faculties, especially in such large majors in the social sciences and English, from the same pool, and the students mostly come from the same pool as well.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
IDad loves Swat, and it is a wonderful school, very, very high on my daughter's list, but it is really liberal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I kind of like Pomona as a reach school in this particular case. I think that Swarthmore and Amherst would be the most similar East Coast "reach" schools to Pomona for this particular student. I would include Williams as a similar "reach" to Pomona as well, but for a different kind of student. The small public charter school background from an area like Fresno is probably a better fit with schools that place a little heavier emphasis on socio-economic diversity. Pomona, Swarthmore, and Amherst would all be signficant reaches, but I think that all three are places that would value the perspective and experiences that Fresnomom's son offers. All three are schools known to offer very attractive need-based aid packages. I don't think they are implausible reaches, especially when there are UC schools as likely acceptances.</p>

<p>The liberal/conservative criteria is problematic because most schools that have conservative flavor got that way by specfically catering to a wealthier and whiter customer base -- sometimes by choice, sometimes by fiscal necessity. </p>

<p>I defer to Carolyn on "match" and merit aid schools, particularly on the West Coast and midwest. The only caveat is that many "merit-aid" schools focus heavily on SATs as a criteria.</p>

<p>Fresno-mom: Don't worry about a school being affluent. That's kind of a given when at least 50% of the students don't qualify for financial aid at all with student bills at $40k per year! The harder trick is to identify schools that have any socio-economic diversity to speak of. Even between schools that have similar demographics, one can "feel" distinctly more affluent than the other. For example, I suspect that the notably conservative Pepperdine feels extremely affluent on campus, probably more so than Pomona.</p>

15

<p>Also look at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. My husband went there, and was very pleased with the education that he got. It has small classes, smart, nurturing faculty, students with down to earth values.</p>

<p>It is very strong in the humanities, and my husband says it has a good music program. I don't know if the campus is dry, but the students are not known as heavy partiers. </p>

<p>They also want to attract all kinds of diversity, and I think that your S would be in line for good need-based and merit scholarships.</p>

<p>The college gets good ratings in the guidebooks for being a strong regional college.</p>

<p>Only negative that I can think of is that Grand Rapids does have some very cold winters.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
This is mostly a bunch of bleep. Occidental has more than double the number of Pell Grant recipients (those with family incomes under $40k a year) than either Swarthmore or Pomona - actually more than both combined --and they've made it affordable for ALL of them, or they wouldn't be there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Right. I think Occidental is an excellent choice as far as financial aid goes and also a school where Fresnomom's son is almost guaranteed admission and probably a merit-aid offer. They offer merit aid to a very large percentage of their student body (24%). It would have been one of the schools I'd recommend if she hadn't already mentioned it. Because Fresnomom's son would be near the very top of Occidental's applicant pool, I think that the combination of merit and need-based aid could very well end up being his most attractive aid package.</p>

<p>However, there are other schools that that tend to not deliver the goods on need-based financial aid, especially when factoring loan components. For example, only one third of Davidson's students qualify for a dime of need-based financial aid.</p>

<p>My point was to investigate the real financial aid picture to separate schools that offer significant real-world need-based financial aid (such as Occidental) from those that do not. Occidental is actually a very good example. They offer tremendous financial aid, but do not claim to meet 100% of need (they actually meet 92% of need statistically). The average loan and self-help component of their financial aid package is also double that of Swarthmore's (and probably Amhersts). </p>

<p>The real test is to compare financial aid packages because, as you know, the total package can vary quite a bit with loan components, merit aid, etc. The school that will be most affordable for one student may not be the most affordable for another. So much depends on how attractive the applicant is to the school, the amount of money the school budgets for financial aid, how they target that aid money, and the specific need calculations of each individual student. </p>

<p>As a general rule, the best finanicial aid packages will come from schools where the applicant is at the top of school's applicant pool. However, this sometimes flips the other way at very selective schools where there is signficant demonstrated need. A mid-pack applicant at Pomona or Swarthmore may get a better need-based package than a mid-pack applicant at Occidental.</p>

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<p>Oddly enough, I haven't seen a very close correlation between conservative schools and schools without a big drug culture. The kids at some conservative secular schools may still do a lot of drugs; they're just different drugs (coke, Adderall, diet pills vs. pot, mushrooms, Ecstasy). Of the schools mentioned on the thread, I would put Oberlin in the second drug culture category.</p>

18

<p>FresnoMom - as you can see from the spirited discourse, there are many things to consider.
You should to continue to pursue learning all you can about financial aid, which schools will be good merit aid choices for him, which schools will be most likely to meet 100% of his need with the most acceptable packages/least loans (often those with the biggest endowments).</p>

<p>He needs to get into gear with his criteria - it is wonderful that he seems easy-going, with fairly wide criteria for an acceptable school, that menas he will probably be happy wherever he ends up. The downside is that now is the time (I'm assuming he is a senior) that he needs to be narrowing down that list. Since FA is of the utmost importance, and he is a good candidate for substantial FA with a carefully donw list, then he has to select the "winners" very carefully - in other words he needs to develop some more criteria. This is a good subject for what my kids call a "car talk" or an ice cream talk, where you sit together, and just start talking about what he wants. He probably has criteria, he has to prioritize them - is suburban more important than small school, does he want to study classics at all, are frats a deal killer, more importantly does he want to live on campus all 4 years, how far from home does he really want to be, etc. Often just applying 3 successive criteria will turn a list from unwieldy to manageable.</p>

19

<p>Hi all, </p>

<p>Thanks for all the advice, suggestions and questions! It has helped so much!</p>

<p>Cangel (and Mini), I know the next step is to get S to narrow down the criteria. Frankly, I didn't realize he had so many choices available to him. Very eye opening.</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks so much.</p>

20

<p>Check out Lafayette as they are generous with financial aid and merit scholarships.
<a href="http://www.lafayette.edu/admissions/finaid/types.html#marquis%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lafayette.edu/admissions/finaid/types.html#marquis&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>