<p>s snack, you seem to know quite a bit about Penn, it's "gaming" and "manipulation" of the US News rankings presumably since 1997 (the first year it broke into the top 7, where it's been ever since), the academic merits of Wharton (with the largest and most-published business school faculty in the world) vs. Sloan, the relative treatment of students in Penn's undergraduate schools and their relative academic self-esteem, etc. Would you mind sharing with us how you came by all this detailed knowledge and insight? It might be helpful to the rest of us in weighing your opinions and evaluations. Thanks!</p>
<p>I am more "old-school" so my perceptions of U Penn are more that it and Cornell were at the bottom of the Ivy heap. But I guess I will have to adjust my thinking as they really have done a brilliant job of leveraging the Wharton program and the financial successes that that program has spawned which has had a futher benefit of powerering their rise in the rankings. confidentialcoll succintly summarized how U Penn has made this happen and I think we all have to give credit to the folks in west Philadelphia (where even the neighborhood is getting better!). Clearly they are doing a lot of things right.</p>
<p>Now, having said that, the time has probably come to applaud as well what Wash U continues to do. But for the (hated by many) PA scoring, Wash U (at 4.1) would be well inside the USNWR Top 10. If U Penn is legit, then so too is Wash U......</p>
<p>evil asian has the best top ten ranking here!</p>
<p>hawkette...What UPenn does is questionable. What WashU does is downright disgusting.
The sent applications to EVERY SINGLE KID in my class this year...even the failing (literally) students.
Their waitlist behavior is horrible as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Haha this ranking totally lost all credibility by putting Penn over MIT. I have never seen any empirical data that puts Penn in even the same ballpark as MIT and that includes strength of student body, mid-50% range of accepted students, selectivity, etc. The only feature of Penn that even comes close to MIT is the fact that Wharton is probably on par with MIT in terms of its connections to Wall Street and the corporate world. There are students who got into Penn this year on CC with sub-2000 SAT scores and cookie-cutter EC's while MIT rejected or deferred candidates early who had a 2400 SAT. 3x800 SAT II's, 4.0 GPA, stellar performances in the 4 major olympiad competitions, great research, etc. Professor reputations and teaching quality between the two institutions don't even compare.</p>
<p>Here's what the top 10 should actually look like in my opinion:</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Stanford/MIT</li>
<li>Caltech</li>
<li>Columbia/UChicago</li>
<li>Duke/Dartmouth/Penn</li>
</ol>
<p>Whatever though, I'm going to Duke so I'm not really going to complain that it's ranked higher than Columbia even if that really shouldn't be the case
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're more or less on the money. The only thing I somewhat question is UChicago. Academically, it's just amazing, but outside of the most educated of circles, it's obsolete. Whether or not that matters is the question.</p>
<p>the fact that a school can plummet 20 spots in less than 10 years just shows how ludicrous this whole system is.</p>
<p>I am not sure what my opinion is but I do believe that UPenn has secured itself as a perennial top 5-10 contender and anyone growing up during this time knows that Penn is extraordinarily selective as is Duke or Dartmouth or (Insert school). MIT fits a certain type of person (engineering or science oriented person) whereas at Duke/Penn etc. that kind of person can flourish around those who are geared toward the social sciences. I think it is foolish to compare apples to oranges. Someone who belongs at MIT would probably be unhappy at a place like Brown or Duke. </p>
<p>And s snack, aren't you in Columbia SEAS?? Talk about riding the prestige of a school such as Wharton?</p>
<p>In the scope of things, it probably doesn't mean much --but since the topic was brought up, I'd say that most people would not hesitate to say that Penn CAS is closer to Wharton than is Columbia SEAS is to Columbia College in terms of prestige.</p>
<p>Columbia should definitely be higher, certainly ahead of duke.</p>
<p>
What exactly does Penn do that is questionable? And what is the basis for your knowledge that Penn does it? You've made many allegations that Penn "games" or "manipulates" the US News rankings, and presumably has done so since at least 1997, the year it first broke into the top 7 in the 1998 ranking. But you've yet to offer any specific, fact-based examples to support your allegations.</p>
<p>calikid...SEAS once did ride CC, but the gap between acceptance rates has greatly narrowed and SEAS now holds a significantly higher average GPA and SAT than CC...but that's all irrelevant.</p>
<p>Penn riding on Wharton involves a whole school riding on one little segment of it.
SEAS riding off of CC (when it did) involved a small fragment of the school riding off the reputation of a much larger body.</p>
<p>Basically, SEAS was riding off of it's University, while Penn, as a University, rides on Wharton.</p>
<p>Does anyone have the ** PEER ASSESSMENT ** scores for the top 10 or so ** liberal arts schools?**</p>
<p>CC.com really shouldn't facilitate such great formatting options. ;) :D</p>
<p>wow Cal TEch over MIT?</p>
<p>45 Percenter, seeing as no schools like to admit how they manipulate statistics, I have none on me at the moment.</p>
<p>However, a good example is when Penn's Admissions Director revealed that they give a preference to students who show a strong interest in the school...aka they yield protect (although I don't think this is as significant as it used to be)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I rather be a DramaQueen, than the Queen of Denial (not The Nile, that big river in Egypt, just in case once again you do not get it)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are too funny.. maybe you should join Brown's comedy club! :p</p>
<p>Let me help you out here... this is going to be kind of rough.</p>
<p>From what I'm about to say.. as the Billy Joel song says, "You may be wrong, but for all I know, you may be right!"</p>
<p>US News' selectivity rankings have it that Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, and Columbia are all ranked higher than Duke... 12 to 7 right. Not a big deal.. huh! But there are five schools TIED for #7.. as the colleges have their own 'overall score'.. I am sure that all of these schools have their own selectivity score (one that US News doesn't have...) otherwise the rank would be useless.</p>
<p>Let's imagine this.
Selectivity Score
Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, etc...:93 (And I don't care if the five-way tie is with a different set of schools.. I think Columbia is ranked a little higher and CIT & Stanford (WHAT!! I know.. crazy!) are tied with the other three.)
Duke: 92</p>
<p>Only one below.. wow!!! Not a big deal... oh my god... that is so dramatically lower!!</p>
<p>On the other hand.. it could be your dream world!</p>
<p>Brown, Dartmouth, Penn: 176.. since only super geniuses such as MovieBuff get into these colleges.
Duke: -5 (because it sucks that much...)</p>
<p>See.. there isn't proof that it is dramatically lower.
Duke has a higher SAT average than most of the Ivies (Brown, Columbia, Penn, and Cornell).. so what if Duke gets a lot of smart, lazy kids... better than a bunch of 'grade-grubbing grinds' who giggle at the idea of being an IVY LEAGUE GRADUATE!!!</p>
<p>But oh right.. I forgot.. Duke being one step ahead of Brown in SAT scores isn't as dramatic of a difference as Brown being ranked one higher in selectivity than Duke.</p>
<p>CoolaTroopa...I agree and disagree.
First of all, as of the last statistic I've seen, Duke and Columbia have identical average SAT's...but Duke's are still higher than Brown, Penn and Cornell.</p>
<p>What we really need to see in order to judge selectivity is data on every single applicant, not just those accepted. Duke may have a high SAT range, but they weigh SAT's more than the Ivies...and if we had data on the whole applicant pool (as in, who was rejected) we could see how much certain schools emphasize scores, and how selective a school really is.</p>
<p>But without those numbers, all we can say, based off of anecdotal evidence is stuff like:
1600 4.0 Guaranteed accepted by Duke. Possibly accepted by Ivies.
1300 3.6 Possible accepted by Ivies. Probably not accepted by Duke.</p>
<p>
Of course, it also helps to have a top-3 medical school, a top-3 veterinary school, a top-3 nursing school, a top-6 law school, quite a few top-5 and top-10 liberal arts departments, top engineering programs in bioengineering and nanotechnology, one of the best museums of archaeology and anthropology in the world, one of the largest research budgets in the country, etc., etc.</p>
<p>Before you make such sweeping pronouncements, you really ought to check the facts.</p>
<p>Can someone please tell me the ranking for the northeast region masters? Thank you.</p>
<p>45...fine fine...Penn's Undergraudate Programs ride on...</p>
<p>As a University, I admit, Penn has much more than Wharton.</p>
<p>If someone has the ** PEER ASSESSMENT ** scores for the top 10 or so ** liberal arts schools**
please post them.</p>
<p>8 Duke , 1350 , 1540 , 1445
9 Columbia , 1330 , 1540 , 1435</p>
<p>I'll see if I can find LAC's PA rankings..</p>
<p>Also to give credit to Dartmouth.. it probably weighs SATs as much as Duke, most people I know of who get in Duke usually get in Dartmouth as well (also if you look at Duke '11 Facebook group.. many are turning down Dartmouth too, lol, and yes I know that many turn down Duke for Dartmouth as well!). The other lower Ivies don't though.</p>