<p>I agree with s snack.</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>Caltech</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>Penn/ Duke</li>
</ol>
<p>Sorry, but besides the fact that it's an Ivy League school, ..what's so good about Brown??</p>
<p>hawkette,
While you're adept at listing many of the nation's great schools, pretending that schools like Emory, Vanderbilt, USC, Tufts, etc are held in the same regard as the middle-Ivies (Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown) and MIT is trite on your part. Sure, some of the schools you listed may be more well known regionally than Ivies and such, but the fact is, when you look at the amount of students travelling not only across the country, but across the world to attend Ivies compared to those doing so to attend your schools, it is beyond clear that there are Ivies and other-super elite institutions beyond HYPS that are more well known and respected than any of the schools you listed. That is why 7 of the 10 best schools in the country are Ivies. </p>
<p>There are great colleges everywhere, but the Ivies and Equivalents (MIT, Stanford, Caltech) are the top 10.</p>
<p>This may be a bit blasphemous but I honestly believe that the quality of education you can potentially get at, Harvard, is completely equivalent to the education you can get at a mid-tier school. The reason for this is that, at least on the undergraduate level, the fundamentals taught in chemistry, math, economics, physics etc. etc. don't change. NaCl at podunkU = NaCl at MIT. The Phillips Curve at UChicago = the Phillips Curve at communityU. </p>
<p>However given this line of reasoning, it can be concluded that the only true intrinsic value of going to a "prestigious" University is indeed the name & connections. Yes, at the Ivies/othertopschools you engage students of the highest caliber. But a metric as vague and subjective as this can be easily overcome by some hard-work at a low-tiered school as long as the student has the motivation. However, no matter HOW HARD that student works, PRESTIGE isn't something you can work for. You either have it or you don't. And how do Universities achieve prestige? Through research, Nobels, Fields Medals, prominent professors etc. etc.. </p>
<p>So given this, I believe that since the quality of education at the top 50 schools in the US is more or less the same, the students themselves would rather the professors make ground-breaking discoveries to boost the Prestige of their University rather than wasting time teaching material any TA can teach. Which brings me to a tangent---- I don't understand the big deal of a TA vs Professor. So what your Intro-to-Economics class is taught by a TA and not a Nobel Prize tenured-professor? At 18 years old, it's not going to matter who teaches you the fundamental material anyway. Heck my high school econ teacher can teach the same amount of material with commensurate quality. I'd rather my Nobel Prize winning professor go win some more prizes and add prestige to the name on my diploma.</p>
<p>S2530S2:
Brown has one of the best reputations and most succesful alumni networks in the country. It is more selective than Dartmouth, Penn and Cornell amongst the Ivies, and maintains a consistently strong yield rate (doesn't it usually beat out Princeton?) Although it never fares well with USNews, Brown is an ever-popular "in" school, and for that reason, maintains a very smart, very accomplished student body.</p>
<p>"That is why 7 of the 10 best schools in the country are Ivies."</p>
<p>In which list?</p>
<p>IMO, Dartmouth and Brown don't even belong to national research universities. They can be ranked at top 10 LAC, and I don't have problem with that. But if you say Dart and Brown are clinched top 10 "research"school position, that just makes me laugh.</p>
<p>truazn:</p>
<p>My personal experience contradicts your assertion that education is the same everywhere. I teach in a large, flagship, state university. I have had to dumb down my curriculum for the quality of student here, or I would have too many kids failing, getting Ds, and the like. And the difference in the value of classroom discussion and participation ... there was and is simply no comparison to the upper LAC where I taught once upon a time.</p>
<p>In addition, there is an implied curve in pretty much all courses. Your best students get As, even if they wouldn't deserve As if every college used some sort of common criteria.</p>
<p>Tarhunt---</p>
<p>Hmm good point. Didn't really realize that. But I think my point about how it's probably more productive and beneficial for students & their University that the big-name professors go do their research instead of wasting time teaching material TA's can capably teach.</p>
<p>Biztogo-- my list on the last page</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>MIT/Caltech</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
</ol>
<p>truazn is right: quality of education honestly does not vary that much from a top school to a mid-tier school as long as the student is willing to find it within their own school. Therefore, the top colleges are much more a reflection of prestige and student body than the education they provide. </p>
<p>Really, exact rankings are such a silly business. Princeton did not "become a better school" when it took the #1 spot from Harvard a few years back, and Penn is certainly not a better school than MIT, Columbia and Stanford which it often ranks above. </p>
<p>However, there is a hierarchy which pervades the industry which does reflect the general prestige and ability of student bodies, which goes as follows:</p>
<ol>
<li>HYPSM
(Lost in between: Columbia and Caltech)</li>
<li>Mid & Lower Ivies and Top 3 LAC's</li>
<li>Everything Else</li>
</ol>
<p>truazn:</p>
<p>Well, think about what you just said. You seem to be implying that the best people to teach students are those who are students, themselves. Perhaps, in American high schools, we can have college sophomores teach high school chemistry while the teachers, who have degrees in chemistry, go off and do independent research?</p>
<p>One more thing:
Why prestige is important:
Prestige is a self-fulfilling prophecy. As it increases, a smarter student body arrives, and the school ultimately becomes better.</p>
<p>Look at Penn for example....they were long considered "the worst" of the Ivy League, but a few years ago, they went on a huge campaign to boost their US News ranking for an extended period of time (=prestige), and now they are a legitimate top 10 school. WashU is attempting to do the same thing.</p>
<p>s snack:</p>
<p>Once again, I believe, from my direct experience, that you couldn't be more wrong. The difference in a small classroom or discussion section containing extrememly academically skilled students and average, run-of-the-mill students is stunning. The bright students I have had who were forced to come to this school because it was all they could afford have often been extremely underchallenged.</p>
<p>Tarhunt---</p>
<p>All you really need to properly educate yourself is a library card. One of my friends at my local hs (he wasn't accepted into my magnet hs) decided that my local HS was a waste of time (and it really was) so he spent every afternoon after school in the public library/borrowing textbooks from teachers. After his sophmore year, he not only qualified for USABO, but made the IchO team as well coming back with an Olympic silver medal. He's now a sophmore at Harvard. </p>
<p>I can safely say that he knew more chemistry than anyone who has ever stepped foot into my local high school--- and the best part? He taught it all to himself through some textbooks.</p>
<p>I love the fact that all these (prospective) Columbia students consistently lecture others on how the world outside of HYPMS is flat and yet feel the need to rank their precious school above all other "mid and lower level Ivies." Please, just give it up.</p>
<p>truazn:</p>
<p>Well, there's some good social policy for you. What say we shut down all schools in the US (at least) and just issue everyone a library card? That should improve the quality of education in the US, don't you think?</p>
<p>Oddly, I'm a big proponent of self-education, and I strongly believe that a transitive verb like "teach" is very, very misleading. I think people can learn. I think others can help them. However, the idea the the "helping" is just as good at every college is, I believe, completely unsupported by any experience I have had.</p>
<p>Dionysus- </p>
<p>I don't think anyone has implied that on this board and even if they did, as a University (graduate + undergraduate), Columbia's only true competition outside of HYP is Penn and possibly Cornell. In terms of research, Columbia's dominance is absolutely clear. As for undergradute, in professional circles Columbia is often placed in the void between HYP and Penn due to historical reasons and whatnot. Go pick any international ranking, or go to any HLS/YLS acceptance lists as a metric for caliber of students (since HLS/YLS are universally recognized as the best Law schools in the country), and you will see that columbia places higher and more respectively than any of the other ivies (sans HYP). I won't even mention the fact that Columbia College perenially has the lowest or second lowest admit rate, and as a university (including fu), it always has an admit rate lower than the other Ivies outside of HYP. But again, this in itself doesn't mean anything (much).</p>
<p>they are legit!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>nice. (10char)
Penn jumps to #5.
Whoever is in charge of Penn's 'USNews-ranking-coordination' office is going to become very very sought after after he retires.</p>
<p>Uh, if you look at actual undergrad measures: student strength, resources, and placement, the list would look something like this:</p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, Princeton
MIT
Stanford
Penn, Dartmouth
Duke, Columbia
Brown, Chicago</p>
<p>Columbia isn't any better than any other school for undergrad. Duke got screwed because of Lacrosse...still number 8 though.</p>
<p>Best National Universities</p>
<ol>
<li>Princeton University (NJ) </li>
<li>Harvard University (MA)</li>
<li>Yale University (CT)</li>
<li>Stanford University (CA)</li>
<li>California Institute of Technology
University of Pennsylvania </li>
<li> Massachusetts Inst. Of Technology </li>
<li> Duke University (NC)</li>
<li> Columbia University (NY)
University of Chicago</li>
<li>Dartmouth College (NH)</li>
<li>Cornell University (NY)
Washington University in St. Louis</li>
<li>Brown University (RI)
Johns Hopkins University (MD)
Northwestern University (IL)</li>
<li>Emory University (GA)
Rice University (TX)</li>
<li>University of Notre Dame (IN)
Vanderbilt University (TN)</li>
<li>University of California – Berkeley </li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon University (PA)</li>
<li>Georgetown University (DC)
University of Virginia</li>
<li>University of California – Los Angeles
University of Michigan – Ann Arbor</li>
</ol>