3.0 to 3.3 (GPA) Parents Thread (2011 HS Graduation)

Parent Cafe
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<p>Lots of students send scores and transcripts weeks before they have completed applications (think back to junior year testing and sending the free score reports). The schools won’t be surprised if things trickle in. I wouldn’t get too apologetic - it will only bring attention to its being an error instead of just how these things go. If the Common App says “submitted,” you should be able to trust that.</p>

<p>We haven’t gotten a “receipt of application” from the priority app my D did, either - but I’ve checked the website (a public u app, not common app) and things look finished. They say that they “look forward” to getting her transcript (I do know it was sent), and that they “will look at” the applications in October, so I’ve just decided it’s too soon to worry about it.</p>

<p>But I definitely know the feeling - worrying somehow it’s lost in cyberspace while we think everything’s OK.</p>

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<p>^It’s a relief to read your post, EmmyBet. I agree that he should leave it be. Everything that needs to be in is now in, even though it showed up out of sequence. Thanks. And on to the next challenge of the senior year olympics! (As for the Mama, I’m onto prescription strength chocolate.)</p>

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<p>I think all of Emmybet’s advice above is very sound–and when she writes “art, not science” it sounds so much more eloquent than when I say “crapshoot”!).</p>

<p>Best of luck, Calv1n and blankmind, there are no stupid questions, jsut some stupid admissions committees who might not want our kids! :)</p>

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<p>On the gpa, the transcript has both weighted & unweighted. They weight AP and honors classes. The difference is 3.27 versus 3.94. Oops, I’m getting mixed up, there are too many gpa’s on this thing. It’s 3.84 weighted, and 3.28 unweighted.</p>

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<p>This question comes up a lot. Plus what to do if it’s on a 5-pt scale, or a 0-100 scale, etc. </p>

<p>I’m not an expert. But my opinion is that since they’ll see the transcript anyway, I’d put in the unweighted GPA - then you look honest instead of trying to prove or hide something. I know they’re really different, and it’s tempting to use the higher one (like for most of us). But because many HS’s do not weight (ours included) and so many schools say that they re-calculate anyway, I just think it makes more sense to give them the raw GPA and let them do what they wish.</p>

<p>I’ve never seen the final word on this here, because even from college reps they all have their own answer.</p>

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<p>And for the record, I DO think it’s a crapshoot! Another reason why I say go for it, but not foolishly, or in a way where the kid comes out unnecessarily bruised.</p>

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<p>"If the transcript shows plenty of rigor, then give the UW GPA. They’ll know what to do. "</p>

<p>Our school reports only weighted on the transcript. So…those of you who report unweighted could be at a disadvantage. (Although…colleges will get the transcript so they can see for themselves.) </p>

<p>I don’t understand why you wouldn’t put the weighted average, if they don’t specifically ask for unweighted or weighted. There’s nothing dishonest about it.</p>

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<p>If your HS is changing all of the grades, with no raw scores anywhere, I guess you’d send in the weighted GPA. </p>

<p>I’m not saying it’s dishonest - I’m just saying that if I were an adcom and I saw a 3.8 GPA and then a transcript with a lot of Bs and maybe some Cs, I might feel like I was being led on a little. These people see thousands of transcripts a year; they know what grades look like.</p>

<p>Don’t forget that schools have the right to take out non-academic classes, to recalculate GPAs according to all kinds of formulas, and do who knows what else when they’re looking at an application. I’m saying I would just give them the basic info and let it ride.</p>

<p>I haven’t calculated it for a while, but my D has an overall 3.6, unweighted. She does have a couple of APs and honors classes, but she also got almost all of her B’s in academic classes, so a school could easily take out the art and music and give her more like a 3.2, then weight it or not, depending on what and how they weight.</p>

<p>When they ask, we say 3.6, because that’s what’s printed by the school on her transcript. But some colleges will drop it, and others will raise it, and we’ll never know. Because of all of the non-academic classes boosting her GPA, I think she’s more in danger of a drop than a rise, even if they do weight. She has a number of Bs in non-weighted academic classes and they’ll see that right away. Her first two years she really was a B student, and only had an upward trend in academics junior year. That’s what they’re going to see - they’re making a much more complex study than just glancing at the one number in the “GPA” box.</p>

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<p>The S I am talking about in this thread is my second. What I learned during last few years is, colleges/universities can be just as much of a “prestige wh…” as some students and parents are.</p>

<p>In many competitive colleges, they have “enrollment management officers” and “marketing VPs”. We also hear about “Tuft syndrome” (proactively rejecting top candidates who are likely to go and enroll in another university so that they can show a higher yield number). </p>

<p>They want to look “good”. They want to be rated higher by the likes of USNWR. Some of the universities/college officials’s salary and bonus depend on it. </p>

<p>They want to show great SATs and GPAs for the admitted students/enrolled students.</p>

<p>I also learned that when colleges tout with great fanfare the “high” average GPAs of their admitted students, they make no attempt to “normalize” GPAs reported by schools that use 4.5, 5.0 or even 6.0 scale. Yes, they will look carefully the transcript, but for the “publicity tour” they will gladly use inflated GPA average.</p>

<p>So, all things being equal, if they see a higher number because it’s weighted, that will be a “better” application for them. To the degree that you help them put their “best foot” forward, you benefit, however slightly it may be.</p>

<p>Yes, I may be cynical, but I don’t think I am too far off the mark. If the colleges are so lofty, noble, and pure in their intention, why in the world do you think they will resort to something like Tuft Syndrome for yield protection? This particular practice is like playing a mind game - they think they can read the applicant’s mind, and reject great candidates who may not have been so explicit about how they are head over hills in love with them. Reject them before they reject us and ruin our pristine yield number. That’s their way of thinking. </p>

<p>Think about it: one adcom of a pretty competitive private university told me that they spend average 15 minutes per applicant for initial screening. In such a “fast turn around” environment, a higher number may just get your kid to pass initial “smell test” so that they can look at his/her application more thoroughly later. If the number is too low for the 2 second glimpse, the application may be sent straight to the reject file. We are all human beings. We are influenced by raw numbers. Why do you think they price the items to be “$99.99” instead of “$100.00” There is such a thing as “psychology”</p>

<p>I would say, if you have a weighted GPA, by all means, use it. It can’t hurt and it may actually help your kid.</p>

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<p>I think lizmane is angry–and cynical–and absolutely right</p>

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<p>All of the above is true. I think we can’t really know what they will do or what they want. It is absolutely correct that they will interpret things the way they want to.</p>

<p>I’m coming from either a luxurious or injurious situation of a HS without a weighted GPA option, never above a 4.0, and only a moderate number of APs and honors classes anyway.</p>

<p>One other thing I’ll remark on this thread is that most of the students here are not applying to schools that are fighting to keep some elite rank. Most of the 3.X schools have plenty high acceptance rates and post livable stats for their accepted students. The syndrome liz is referring to is generally happening at schools that are trying very hard to attract the very top applicants, not B-students. </p>

<p>I’ll say somewhat facetiously that maybe inflating one’s GPA for a school that has that syndrome of rejecting the best applicants could hurt a student in the long run!</p>

<p>I can be plenty cynical, but I’ll keep believing that the adcoms at these schools will take a realistic look at the transcripts and the entire application before making a decision.</p>

<p>Honestly I sometimes think that being from a hick town no one has ever heard of is going help my D more than anything else in her application to any school.</p>

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<p>hey, I am not angry :slight_smile: but cynical, yes!</p>

<p>With my S1, I thought "oh, they are not crass used car salesmen. They are in ACADEMIA, an Ivory Tower. They will do their best to see what a wonderful applicant my kid is. </p>

<p>And then, I started to learn what really goes on! I learned this too late to help my S1, but S2 is definitely benefiting from my “cynicism” (a better to put it is “strategic thinking”). </p>

<p>What I learned is, they like candidates that make them look good - be it athletics, diversity, legacy, or ranking. To the degree that I can help my son position himself as someone who can “help” them, he will come out better.</p>

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<p>Of course, this helps! I listened to numerous “marketing presentations” by college representatives. They all love to talk about how many countries their students are from and how they cover the whole North American continent. This makes them look cool, hip, cosmopolitan, and yes, glamorous, ya know? That one gaping hole of West Virgina that is not covered? You had better believe, if there is a half way reasonable candidate from that place, they will go out of their way to give him/her a benefit of doubt. Wife of one of my colleagues used to be a regional admission director of an Ivy, and she said, she used to be given a quota for NJ - they don’t want kids from NJ, NY, CT etc to inundate their school. Of course, they NEVER, ever say this officially. See, we are not talking about justice for the kids. we are talking about the institutional needs of the college that really drive most of their decisions.</p>

<p>My kids, on the other hand are part of the over represented segment of the population from NJ in a household of uselessly overeducated parents… I joke that my kids have anti hooks and they are “Teflon candidates” - nothing sticks!!! It’s a miracle that S1 is in a top 10 school.</p>

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<p>If there is a bastion of honesty left in academia, it is the small schools ranked below the top 150, who have much less reason to jockey for USNWR points and where the professors actually teach kids themselves, instead of exploiting TAs or lecturing before huge crowds</p>

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<p>lizmane - I think you’re really honest and clear and witty and also very helpful. I hope that we all can support you, too, as your S2 goes through this process. I’m imagining he is a 3.X student, and that is why you are on this thread and why you are weighing all of these very complicated choices, just like the rest of us. I, too, have a first child with top stats, who was fortunate to get into her top-ranked school. She maybe was lucky, and maybe only got in because of our hick town. We’ll never know. My second child is looking at very different schools, for very different reasons; some are pretty selective and some aren’t, and we’ll have to see how things turn out as she presents her whole package.</p>

<p>A couple of pages back we were asked if the kids on this thread aren’t basically “top” students after all, or trying to be “top” students. Many of us asserted that this thread continues to be a place where you can be honest about your flaws, realistic in your goals, and certain that kids with all kinds of attributes still can get a great education at a high-quality institution in this country.</p>

<p>I’m trying not to sound saccharine or condescending. This thread is not about why the top schools are unfair and how we can help our kids get into them. It is about finding a good fit for these kids, and about supporting each other through the frustrations of living with kids who “blow it” a lot more often than a lot of us would like. It’s about helping them to move forward, but also about letting them be who they are now. It’s about appreciating the schools that do accept them and give them extraordinary opportunities.</p>

<p>Maximizing options is always helpful, and most parents on CC are here because we want to get the scoop on how to manage this weird and confusing game as “successfully” as possible. This thread is for all of us who want to see American colleges as full of options and people who will help our kids grow, and this often means looking in different places than the usual CC high-stat families look, for places that appreciate different qualities than the usual CC student presents.</p>

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<p>I’d like to say thank you to everyone posting in this forum. You may not even know you are being helpful in sharing your experiences. I am reading every post. I originally came to CC because we have one very academically gifted child who wants the type of education that my husband and I have no experience with. Neither of us graduated from a university…we are business owners, self-educated, and world travelers. Even so, this is a different world for us. CC has been helpful in helping us navigate this new world of super-selective universities. However, THIS thread has been the real jewel. We have two other, “average” or non-super achievers in academics. This thread is a supportive area, with excellent information. The GCs all want to help our gifted child…but we seem to be the only ones cheering on our other two high schoolers who also deserve the top opportunities to excel in life. Thank you.</p>

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<p>emmybet,</p>

<p>My S2 is a 3.X kid. His unweighted GPA is 3.2, and weighted is 3.5 on a 4.0 scale. Given that he has taken APs and honors and scored relatively well on SAT, he may be a bit on a higher end of this thread. </p>

<p>I have no intention to hijack this thread to make it into yet another lengthy discussion on top schools and what not. My intention was to share some insights into the whole number game practiced by various stakeholders. I believe regardless of the competitive strength or lack thereof of our kids, it always helps to know all the rules. We can choose not to play by the rule but it’s better that we know and chose not to play the game, rather than shoot in the dark because we did not even know the rule. Our kids, since they are challenged in one major aspect, need more research and strategy, not less, to find the best possible fit. </p>

<p>My whole point was, our GPA challenged kids may actually be better positioned than we thought they were. This allows them to explore more options and find a better fit among a larger set of potential universes. It gives them more choices. I always felt that I would rather be in a position to choose among 10, rather than 3. </p>

<p>Working with S2, I had to learn a whole lot of game rules that I did not have to know at all for S1. I am trying to make the most of the hand dealt to me. And, I figured whatever I learn, I share with other wonderful folks on this forum, since they taught me so much last couple of years.</p>

<p>Anyway, with several posts I made last couple of days, I exhausted what meager, and questionable, insight I gained during last several weeks talking to adcoms of various colleges/universities. As such, until such time I replenish my hoard of “sharable” tid bits, I will go back to the “lurking” mode.</p>

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<p>I really had no intention of being scary or critical. I’m sorry if I came off that way. It was really clear that you have a lot to tell us, and I do think what you’re saying is very true. There are a lot of choices, and I wasn’t trying in any way to shoot them down, but just to have a discussion. The only thing I was trying to be careful about was that many people who read this thread are concerned that we might stray into a “how to get into top schools” conversation, so I was trying to bring it around a bit. </p>

<p>I don’t think your insight is at all questionable. I think we see some of this differently, and probably 10 other people on this thread see it in 10 additionally different ways. One of the most interesting things I’ve found in this 3.X journey has been that these kids often do look for schools for very different reasons than how possible it is for them to get into them. My D2 for whatever reason hasn’t looked for anything that’s higher than a match for her academically (several schools have theater programs with low admission percentages, but those are not based on any stats - and even at those schools she has an excellent chance academically). But she certainly has many, many options and a large, varied list.</p>

<p>There have been so many schools to choose from - but she does not want to go to a “reach.” I sometimes think she’s selling herself a little short, but she gave it a lot of thought, did a lot of research, and made her decision. All of her schools are commendable and exciting - a few are lesser-ranked, although their theater programs are very well-respected. </p>

<p>I’m sorry to sound like I’m arguing with you - I hope people are reading and thinking about what this all means to them, because that’s what makes these threads so helpful. I do think you’re right that seeing more options to find better fit is extremely important. And for some kids, that fit does include reaching a little higher. And for others it means looking for characteristics on another spectrum, such as size, or program, or location, or “feel.”</p>

<p>I’ll say again that I’m glad you’re with us and I hope this thread continues to be helpful.</p>

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<p>YES, YES, YES. You got it exactly right. It’s human nature. It’s easier to be a cheerleader for the winner. GCs get excited about the possibility of saying "I helped so and so get into XXX (pick your tippy top school). For other wonderful, but not academic superstars, their attitude seems to be “oh, how about ABC and XYZ schools (generic state schools, etc)” They don’t seem to feel that thorough research and strategy are warranted. If anything, I say, our kids need a more carefully crafted navigation chart.</p>

<p>I never visited my S1’s GC other than in the general “back to school night” etc. For my S2, I have already visited her and the entire guidance counselor department multiple times. I am very well know, not as a helicopter parent, but because I caught a MAJOR computer glitch that deflated my S2’s and a few other kids’ GPA quite meaningfully. (It took 5 weeks and multiple visits to the school on my part to have them finally admit their errors, and they had to recompute everybody’s GPA and completely redo their class ranking in several schools in our district). </p>

<p>The amazing part is, it’s usually the hyper active parents of the top 1% students who are all up in arms about minute grade issues and what not in their kids’ pursuit for that perfect GPA. Just talking with other parents, I get the impression that parents of the top 30%, 50% kids are not as vigilant perhaps because they feel “well, Jonny is not going to Harvard anyway, so no need for such fuss…” Well I beg to differ. I think they need MORE fuss, not less from us. </p>

<p>Through this whole process, S2’s GC got to know him REALLY well - which is something in a very large suburban public school for a kid who is not in the top few % range. I heard the other day her saying “Oh, XXX’s grades in a couple of courses… I should explain better in the GC rec letter why the grades suffered, and how he is overcoming his weakness”. I bet every bit helps. When she write a letter which clearly shows that she really knows him, and talks about his strength in a genuine voice, I bet that makes a different impression on the admission officers. </p>

<p>Our GPA challenged kids need far more attention, advocacy, and support from us, GCs, and teachers. In this endeavor, we need to show we are on top of everything - this keeps them “on their toes”, and not treat our kids with cursory attention while they are all hovering around to help Tommy get into Harvard and Charlie, the football star, get the athletic scholarship.</p>

<p>By the way, I am COMPLETELY hands off on his school work or ECs. Never even asked him when the exams and tests are. I am only helping him as a strategist and “business consultant” - this level of “total ecosystem management & maneuvering” is way above his pay grade, and it’s my role.</p>

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<p>Lizmane has made some very good points about the marketing emphasis of a number of schools that have historically been considered 2nd and 3rd tier. The explosion of </p>

<p>1) Honors programs in the last 15 - 20 years
2) Extensive recruitment/full scholarship offers to NMSF’s
3) Use of weighted GPA’s for “public” reporting</p>

<p>has made schools that were always considered solid matches for a B student, now seem like a reach – because these 3 factors inflate the reported GPA of the entering class. In our area, schools like Indiana University, Penn State and Delaware were historically considered out of state matches for B/B+ students. Now, based on the average GPA reported, they could be considered reaches…and in the past 5 years have rejected a few of our B/B+ students with test scores within their 50% range.</p>

<p>I don’t consider my 3.0 - 3.3 kid “GPA challenged.” This child is a B student. Can occasionally rise to A work, and also manages to get C’s. Our college expectations for this child are within the B range and contain the all-important big time sports emphasis this child wants. Any one of this child’s college choices will provide an excellent education that will allow this child to pursue any number of academic and professional interests. I also have an older child who was an academic and EC superstar. GC has spent much more time with us on 2nd child than on child 1. We must have pretty good GC’s! She didn’t worry about child 1’s application or resume or whether or not there would be an offer from an HYPMS school. She has made an effort to suggest solid target schools for child 2 and has made suggestions for “promoting” this child’s minimal EC’s and outside interests.</p>

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<p>emmeybet,</p>

<p>No worry. I did not misunderstand you. You are so PAINSTAKINGLY polite, thoughtful, and considerate. You are one of those people I would like to shake and ask “are you for real?” One of my best friends is just like you. Sometimes I joke that I have to be really evil just to bring out a cosmic balance for someone who is so preternaturally goody two shoe - something this unnatural must be sanitized somewhat in the opposite direction.</p>

<p>Me? I can be sarcastic and feisty (and, that’s one hell of an euphemism).</p>