<p>42go,
welcome and ask anything anyone can help you with–there are many good options for kids on this thread!</p>
<p>liz- your words are very kind, thank you. Feisty is fun!</p>
<p>Actually I think many people where I live would probably say I am feisty, too. Right now, here, I’m fairly calm - for a number of reasons. This is my last child; her goals make sense and will be met one way or another; she has matured and moved forward in ways unimaginable a year or two ago. I have come to terms with what our school district can offer us, and overall I have been pleased with the GCs, although mostly that is because they have let us run with whatever we want.</p>
<p>But for years I was definitely the parent who worked extensively on the macro level to make changes in our district. I almost pulled this child out into private school 5 years ago; she herself ultimately made the decision to stay and make it work (and I’d say that has happened). I completely understand your description of being an involved but not a helicopter; I have done little interference in my D’s daily life and work, don’t look at her homework, none of that. But I’ve been very present -and feisty!- in making changes on a larger scale in improving systems, in broadening narrow-mindedness, and in advocating for kids who don’t, can’t or won’t perform in conventional patterns of success.</p>
<p>Where I live, the situation is somewhere between lizmane’s and revien’s. The top kids are often ignored because they’ve “got it,” and of course they’ll go to UW-Madison. The B-students are often ignored because there are so many fine public options for them; the GCs just switch to another tier of UWs. I think I’ve met only one teacher in 8 years at our HS who actively encourages kids to look elsewhere (and lets them know the cost can actually be equivalent). As for general academic challenges … there are not a lot systemically, but many opportunities from many wonderful teachers doing things inside the classroom and out, so that I think my kids have had “enough” challenging and rewarding experiences. Also, we’ve been dedicated to finding our own extra activities and helping our kids follow their passions outside of school, and the relative mildness of the demands of our HS has made that a bit easier.</p>
<p>I could have sent my kids to other schools. My D1 didn’t understand so much about our district’s deficits when she was there, but saw very quickly where our HS fell on the spectrum when she got to a competitive university - however, she has been able to put that into perspective and move forward. In the long run it’s just spilt milk. D2 has had to fight harder to be respected and understood, and she learned more quickly to make her own meaning. We are fortunate that she has had some truly amazing people in her life, to help her along her somewhat slower-paced, more complicated journey.</p>
<p>I also have the advantage of having grown up in suburban Boston, where they definitely were counting heads for Harvard, Yale, etc. I’ve said before that a GC literally said to me, and many times, “I don’t know why you keep taking so many unusual classes; you could be getting all A’s in easier ones!” I always figured an A without meaning was wasted time (back then I definitely was feisty). That’s a dangerous attitude for a HS student, even back when admissions weren’t so competitive. I made it work out quite happily - but only because my mother and my GC did make the extra effort to find the right “fit” for me. We had to drop a lot of preconceived notions and also broaden our geographical vision to do that.</p>
<p>I guess my last words right now are yes, fight, but let’s be sure that we’re fighting for what we really want, not some idea of what’s good that other people have decided for us (including USNWR and the Princeton Review).</p>
<p>Another thing about this thread - in being inclusive, we understand that some 3.X students have lopsided test scores, and this makes them better candidates for higher-tiered schools. I know there is a lot of frustration in wanting to put together an application that puts them forward as positively as possible. Some months back, there was a very active and helpful thread for B+ students who were reaching higher - I think it should be revived for this year’s group.</p>
<p>Lizmane, I appreciate the perspective you’ve brought to CC. Your are so right - colleges are very invested in self-promotion (USNWR rankings, yield, etc). They do not hesitate to report information/statistics in a manner that is helpful to their goals.</p>
<p>I personally think that applicants should use the same strategies that colleges use to mazximize their admissions. It is probably my legal training, but it has always been my philosophy to put yourself in the most favorable light possible without being dishonest. I have passed that philosophy to my kids. </p>
<p>For us, D will be listing whichever of her GPA looks highest on of her apps. and will have no qualms or second thoughts about doing so. (We’ve never actually seen her UW GPA, b/c W GPA is the only one on report cards & we’ve yet to get a copy of her transcript) I agree w/ Lizmane-a slightly higher, albeit weighted GPA might be enough to get her app in the “keeper pile” during initial app reviews.</p>
<p>My own legal training has made me think many colleges come very close to committing fraud–or it is not even close, such as when colleges bully athletes who do not grow as expected to drop their scholarships.</p>
<p>But there is hope–my son is a freshman and (knock wood) so far his small, non-tier 1 school has lived up to its promises of small classes and caring individual attention.</p>
<p>^ Agreed, yabeyabe2 about colleges coming close to committing fraud. </p>
<p>Speaking of bullying athletes, did you ever see Hoop Dreams? I recently re-watched it and was reminded of how badly colleges (& private high schools) exploit their recruited athletes when they do not perform as hoped. Grrrrr…</p>
<p>I liken college brochures and marketing campaigns to political campaigns. Lots of glitz, great slogans, plenty of polish, but you have to dig below the surface to get the real story.</p>
<p>Hoop Dreams is a great movie. Credit to Marquette, however, for keeping the kid on scholarship even after he dropped off the team.</p>
<p>I am not sure which is more dishonest–the tactics of the football factories or the Ivies, Hopkins, etc pretending they do not recruit, when they give huge preference to athletes.</p>
<p>
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<p>This is the major line of gripe for me. </p>
<p>My biggest advice to the parents of 3.0-3.3 students: Don’t ever assume that since GCs are professionals in their field, we should bow to their professional opinions and assume that our kids are in good hands.</p>
<p>As much as I think most of the GCs are hardworking professional who wish the best for their students, I just don’t think most of them think out of the box at all!!! They are operating within their comfort zone. For guidance counselors in a large public school system, state universities are within their comfort zone. Plus a few local private colleges they are familiar with. Outside this zone, majority of them can be just as clueless as most of us (OK, I am harsh, and I am sure some of the stay on top of everyting…). I even heard a talk by one of them who said "oh, if the finance is the issue, you should consider a public school like XXX (OOS public school in a neighbor state) as opposed to YYY (a private school). Meanwhile, that OOS’s tuition for OOS students was about the same as that of YYY, and YYY had much greater option of merit awards, while XXX hardly ever gave merit award to OOS students).</p>
<p>For S1, who attended nationally recognized public magnet high school where over 50% of S1’s classmate (total 60) went to USNWR top 20 schools, the GCs simply took care of the paperwork, since it’s the students and their hyperactive parents who did all the research, exploration and what not. I don’t think S1 got even 10 minutes of college advising from the GC department. Even about the top colleges (where most of their students were applying), they had very little opinions and insight into these top schools other than the ranking and famous departments.</p>
<p>Now, with S2 in a regular school system, I am seeing a different, but eerily similar pattern: they are excited about a few kids who will make the whole school proud and pay extra attention, they spend a lot of time dealing with problem kids. And, when it comes to kids like S2 who are in the top 20-40% range, they put themselves onto an automatic pilot mode: state flagships and lower tier state schools (this schools is a competitive suburban school, and our state flagship is not in the same league as the likes of Berkeley, UVA, U Michigan, so top 30% of the kids, with good SAT, will make it to the state flagship). </p>
<p>Unless the parents get very actively involved, most of these kids are routinely funneled through the default channel without much thought, exploration, and research. Now, we are talking about a upper middle class NJ suburb here - the population mobility is high, all sorts of talks, discussions on higher education are all around. The NE/mid atlantic corridor from Boston to DC is a hot bed of excellence in higher education and a plethora of options and choices are available. Even so, this is the level of guidance kids get in a public school system. </p>
<p>I can only imagine what kind of guidance “normal” kids get in rural states where most of the guidance counselors are also “local”, and don’t have exposure to a wide range of options and choices for higher education outside of their immediate comfort zone.</p>
<p>This is precisely why the CC forum discussions are so enormously helpful. We need to be vigilant.</p>
<p>As the parent of a 13er, who will likely fall into this range, I so appreciate all the discussion/information contained in this group. Thankies :)</p>
<p>lizmane is absolutely right–to the point where I wonder if her upper middle class NJ suburb is mine1</p>
<p>I have tried to push our GC to think beyond the usual suspects–and gotten nowhere. They even distribute a list of college advice websites which does include CC or the other best known ones, but does include many which no longer exist.</p>
<p>I would add that they assume all parents have big bucks or will look at state schools, so they have no clue about merit aid options.</p>
<p>My daughters GCr has not assisted her in any way. She has completed all applications on her own. The only thing that has been asked of the counselor is to complete the required secondary school reports. My daughter attends a magnet academy in our school system, out of the 2200 students that attend her HS, this counselor only has to deal with 70 seniors. Quite a difference from the load the other counselors have. That being said, my daughter told her GC the other day that she had been accepted to Alabama, granted not that diffcult of a school to get admitted to, but she was proud of the fact she had been accepted by August 1st. Her GC’s comment to her was, "Really, and do you know how much the tuition is for OSS students. Good luck with that. " The GC has no idea what our financial status is so I was a little miffed at the comment. She hasn’t even called her in to determine if she has any chance of attending any of her choices. I realize they are overworked, and very underpaid, but seriously you can at least acknowledge that my daughter did this all on her own and took some of the burden off of your plate.</p>
<p>In general, my expectation of GC is to do all the paperwork in a timely fashion and help position my S in a positive light in the GC rec letter. I have no expectation that they will share amazing insight and advice on college selection, choice, merit award options, or anything like that. Certainly, I won’t look to them for the latest admissions trends, etc.</p>
<p>I would be happy if there is no major screw up. In my case, it took 5 weeks and numerous visits on my part just to get them to finally fix the major computer glitch in their system for GPA calculation and class ranking. This error I caught was big enough to make a difference up to $230K of Army ROTC scholarship - GPA error on their part was 0.6 out of a 4.0 scale, and Army is VERY number driven.</p>
<p>By the way, I don’t have any adversarial relationship with my S’s GCs. I am on very friendly terms with them. As people, I like them all. They seem to be good intentioned and nice.</p>
<p>It’s just that when they have a lot of kids to deal with and their own personal life to handle, they simply won’t have the cycle time to stay completely on top of the latest stuff happening on the college admission front.</p>
<p>All of our kids are individually different. The level of customization in support and advice required to put them on the best possible path is really far outside the normal support we can expect from GCs. </p>
<p>And, I believe the difference due to this level of parental guidance is far more significant for the mid range kids than either the tippy top kids or the kids way below average. I do believe my S1 would have done about the same with or without this kind of support. For my S2, I say, at the risk of sounding pompous, my involvement could result in a difference of going to a private school within top 50 with a full ride deal (Army ROTC scholarship) worth $230K or going to a large public school with classes as big as 300 taught by a TA. </p>
<p>I feel bad for the kids who are not getting any support like this from their parents. Life is definitely not fair.</p>
<p>lizmane, just curious…how does your involvement effect/determine whether your S2 gets an AROTC scholarship and will be assigned a top 50 private (worth 230K) rather than going to a large public? </p>
<p>My S1 got a NROTC scholarship (plus two merit scholarships). He went to one of the large publics that you seem to disparage. It was his top choice. I supported him in every way but don’t think I had any influence on his getting the scholarship and certainly no influence as to the ROTC unit he was assigned to.<br>
Doesn’t Army require one of the top three choices to be a public univeristy? Navy did.
Like I said, just curious.</p>
<p>Packmom,</p>
<p>I think you are reading too much into what I was saying if you think I disparaged the public school: besides how do you even know which school I was talking about? </p>
<p>Everybody to his own, but I just happen to feel that if I can wing it, I would rather send my son to a school where from the freshman year, he is taught by professors in a class no larger than 30. If that makes me a person who “disparages” large public school, so be it. That said, if S was into big time organized sports and such, I would respect his decision to go to a mega football public school and I would my utmost best to help him land in the best football school he desires to go to. It so happens that he is not really into those things, and he clearly mentioned that it is his preference to go to a different kind of school.</p>
<p>Next question: </p>
<p>Army ROTC does not stipulate that you pick a public school as one of the top 3. The max $230K calculation is based on a couple very pricey private schools where the school throws in free room and board on top of the full tuition, fee, books, and stipend Army provides. Tuition, fee, book, stipend, room & board for 4 years come close to $230K.</p>
<p>My influence is all about strategy. I thoroughly researched during last two years to learn how the cadet command makes a decision when they choose one candidate over the other in granting scholarship money. I also learned all sorts of things that are completely unofficial but in reality determine the outcome for any given kid. I even learned how the scholarship interviews are scored line by line (wouldn’t you know, it’s government, so they have “rule books” for everything!)</p>
<p>I learned how the dynamics between the central cadet command and the individual battalion PMSs work out. I learned at which colleges/universities the PMS has a great deal of influence over the college admissions directors, and what will “motivate” the PMS to be an advocate for a kid vis a vis admission decisions. I learned at which universities that would otherwise be a high reach for me son, being a credible candidate for ROTC scholarship can be a major hook and how best to play that card. I compiled a list of a precious few highly regarded universities that put much more emphasis on SAT than GPA (which is a good new for S), and where they have a very good relationship with the ROTC units.</p>
<p>So in the end, I helped S2 put together a list of colleges to apply to where the odds are very good that he will get in and get ROTC scholarship. Many of these colleges could easily be considered high reach without a carefully crafted strategy of leveraging scholarship potential for admission decisions, and visa versa.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, over last two years, I befriended former PMSs and “motivated” them give my son mock interviews and coach them all throughout the process - all out of good will. I drove S all over the East Coast to give him an opportunity to have a face to face time with all the PMS of the schools on the list of his ROTC scholarship school of intent form. I found a way for the enrollment & scholarship officers to get to know my S and coached him. Some of them even gave him feedback on scholarship application essays. By the way, all this matters because PMSs and officiers are people too, and when the cadet command sends a list of candidates to PMSs that passed their initial screening for scholarship, it’s the candidates who they got to know in person that will get more attention. </p>
<p>If you (generic you, not particular “you”) think the college application admission process is a complicated mystery, the ROTC scholarship process is a witchcraft. The more you know, the better the odds are.</p>
<p>None of these would have been necessary if my son’s GPA is a half grade higher and he was a captain of couple of varsity sports teams, as it would have put S in a comfortable position without all this convoluted strategy on my part. </p>
<p>None of these would have mattered if S was not otherwise a determined kid who took the initiative of doing all the military related things on his own. I am completely hands off regarding his ECs and academic work. It was his decision to join a Civil Air Patrol (Air Force auxiliary) and became the fastest promoted cadet. It was his own decision to enroll in the junior summer ranger school (survival training and search and rescue), where he was selected the best cadet of the year and earned the status of a trainer. 1000+ volunteer hours were all his doing. His good SAT score is his own. The fact that he comes across so well in interview settings is his own fortune. </p>
<p>If this was a business and S was a product, I would say, I did not produce this product (meaning, I did not order it to my personal specification), but I did my best to be a one hell of a product manager. I did thorough market research to devise the best possible strategy to promote it, market it, distribute it, and ultimately sell it to the highest bidder. And, the sales proceed is his to keep, not mine.</p>
<p>The reason why I believe that it’s the top 20-50% kids who can really benefit from good guidance is this. Just like in any business, really amazing products sell themselves without much hoopla. Really bad products can’t be helped no matter what. A wide range of products in between can shine or fail depending on how they are marketed and sold. </p>
<p>If Packmom’s son found a perfect combination of the school and scholarship without any of this convoluted strategic planning, and I would say “hooray!!!” He must have been terrific kid all around. You know, the kind of product that sells itself like I mentioned above. </p>
<p>Mine, on the other hand, is a kid with terrific potential but glitches that needed to patched over. This is where I had an influence - to make the needed stitches look seamless and invisible.</p>
<p>Where I see GCs falling short–and where they could easily do better is that at many HS’s they nnot only do not work hard to find information, but they do a terrible job of sharing it.</p>
<p>I do not expect them to work as hard as a parent would, but, at HS’s with 5 or more counselors, shouldn’t 1 of them have the task of keeping up with trends in admissions, best web resources, etc and then sharing the knowledge within the department?</p>
<p>Similarly, shouldn’t 1 of them work hard at keeping up with what is going on at their state’s public colleges and sharing that informaiton? Most guidance department sinstead seem to have every counselor functioning as an island.</p>
<p>They have many things to do, but could accomplish more by working smarter, not harder.</p>
<p>In our public school district, I have never felt that our GCs were any help at all! I started doing all my own research online & in books & buying “Princeton Review-Paying for College Without Going Broke”, when our oldest child was in the 7th grade. I just felt it was a good idea to educate myself about the college admission process & financial aid. </p>
<p>We never really asked our four children’s GCs for any advice at all! All they had to do was process the transcripts & recommendations. We left the high school out of the test loop, too, no SAT scores were sent to the high school. We controlled which SAT scores went to which colleges. </p>
<p>Now that the youngest of 4 children is a freshman, my oldest asked me, “Mom, what are you doing to now that you don’t have to get one of your kids into a college?” I said “Get a life.” But I can still contribute on CC! 
</p>
<p>SLUMOM - how do you keep the high school from knowing the SAT scores?</p>
<p>When you register online for a SAT Test on the Collegeboard website, make sure that the box that refers to sending scores to student’s high school is what you want! I forget exactly which it is, either you check a box for wanting the scores sent to HS or it is automatically checked & you must “Uncheck it”. But it is there, so just pay attention when you register your student for SAT tests. That way, no SAT scores will appear on your child’s transcript. Take the school out of the loop.</p>
<p>cherryhillmom, The HS code is not a required field on the College board site so you can just leave it blank. There is no way for the schools to know who took the SAT or what their scores were unless they are told by CB or the students.</p>
<p>I like our GC very much and she’s done as much as we’ve asked her to do. I LIKE doing the research and there’s no way she could know my son as well as I do. His priorities have shifted as we’ve visited colleges and even if she came up with a list one week (as we have) it could easily change the next. And it has.</p>
<p>Our guidance department has set up a pretty streamlined system for applications and they are aware of deadlines and financial considerations. We have naviance now, but it’s not up and running so my son won’t benefit from it.</p>
<p>Well, Son has three applications in, two rolling and one that had a scholarship deadline of Monday. It’s good to feel we’ve got that started. I’m hoping that Sunday or Monday (kids have off Monday) he can tackle the EA ones. Progress reports are sent out today but I can see from the on-line grades that he’s doing fine - A’s and B’s. Tomorrow he’s taking his last SAT. Tonight he’ll study but mostly he’s going to just hope for a gift of 100 points! Okay, 40 would do it… or let’s just hope it doesn’t go down! :(</p>
<p>Best of luck CHmom!</p>