3/2 Dual Degree Programs for Engineering

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>My son has seen lots of 3/2 dual engineering programs in his college search. In those programs, he would take the foundation science and math courses and core curriculum at a liberal arts college for the first 3 years, and then he would go to another college (which has an arrangement with the first college) for 2 more years to finish up his undergrad work. After 5 years of undergrad studies, he would have 2 undergrad degrees, a BS and a BA. He loves learning and he loves all subjects. History and Russian Studies are favorites. In many ways, a liberal arts college would be a great fit for his personality, interests, and love of learning. In other ways, an engineering school would be a great fit for his keen interest in math and science and the great, specialized engineering and research opportunities that would then be available to him. He knows schools exist that are both liberal arts and engineering schools -- Wash U in St. Louis comes to mind. But on a 4 year engineering track, there will be little time to delve into the liberal arts that he likewise loves. </p>

<p>The question is, does anybody have any firsthand knowledge of one of these 3/2 programs? Are they looked down upon by other engineering schools? Do employers think less of them? Or more of them, perhaps? Are there ever problems starting at one school for the liberal arts degree only to find that somehow the avenues have closed up for the engineering track? And how are scholarships managed? My son has great stats and is hoping to earn great scholarships. If he got a fantastic scholarship to the "3" part of the program, does that carry over to the "2" part of the program at the other school? We'd love to hear anything you know first- or secondhand! Thanks!</p>

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<p>No, to all. The BA (usually in a science or Math) has no impact on the hiring process. Engineering employers will hire based solely on the engineering degree and engineering GPA. </p>

<p>That said, there are some advantages and disadvantages. The most significant advantage is access to a second career services department and alumni network. Also, his engineering GPA will consist of just the last two years, which are usually higher GPA classes than the freshman courses (which would transfer in without grades). </p>

<p>The most significant disadvantage is a lack of access to engineering internships in the first three years. Most students intern two or three times in college, and that is a major hiring consideration. Unless your son is proactive, he’ll only have the opportunity for one internship and will be behind the other students. Also, he’ll have all of his engineering classes (higher workload) compressed into two years (4-5 major classes/semester). Most “straight through” students take 2-3 major classes per semester.</p>

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<p>If he starts with the intent at pursuing a 3/2 program, he can take the appropriate classes to ensure that “avenues stay open”. If, on the other hand, he starts as a Russian Studies major and decides in his junior year to enter the 3/2 program, he will probably not have the required classes and might need to add another year. </p>

<p>This is what tends to happen to 3/2 aspirants. They get off track, then when they realize that they would need another year to qualify to transfer to the engineering school, they give up and take the BA. Many students start to “burn out” after about 3 years. </p>

<p>The liberal arts school should have a counselor designed for 3/2 students to keep them on track. Usually “on track” means many math and science courses, which is why most 3/2 students have their BA in Chemistry, Physics, or Math. It would be difficult to earn the credits for a BA in Russian Studies, for example, and still stay on track. Minor would be appropriate if that’s something he really enjoys but doesn’t want to pursue for employment.</p>

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<p>School issued scholarships usually don’t carry over. Some external scholarships may or may not carry over, depending on the scholarship conditions. Sometimes you can transfer into the “2” school and receive new scholarships from that school.</p>

<p>You are basically treated like a transfer student when you go from the liberal arts school to the technical school. After the “3”, your liberal arts credits transfer to the technical school and count towards your engineering degree, and at the end of the “2” your engineering credits transfer back to the liberal arts school and count towards your BA. Thus you get 2 degrees simultaneously.</p>

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<p>^^Thanks, GP!
That helps a lot!</p>

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<p>I just want to reiterate the major disadvantage only having a chance for one internship would be. It’ll be extremely important for him to get some sort of research experience during school so that he can have something other than one job to talk about when he’s interviewing for jobs. It’s not a death sentence but having multiple internships is a huge advantage.</p>

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<p>My concern when looking at these programs is being able to pay for 5 years of college.</p>

<p>Does financial aid drop off after 8 semesters? I am really unclear on this.</p>

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<p>Lafayette College in Easton, PA is another LAC with a strong undergraduate engineering program. Here are links to
Engineering: [Division</a> of Engineering: Home](<a href=“http://engineering.lafayette.edu/]Division”>http://engineering.lafayette.edu/)
History: [History[/url</a>] and
Russian and East European Studies: [url=<a href=“http://rees.lafayette.edu/]Russian”>http://rees.lafayette.edu/]Russian</a> and East European Studies: Welcome](<a href=“http://www.lafayette.edu/admissions/majors/history.html]History[/url”>http://www.lafayette.edu/admissions/majors/history.html)</p>

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<p>The majority of engineering students take more than 4 years to graduate these days. It’s not as big of a deal as in other fields since engineers are paid very well if they intern in the summers (our interns averaged $15,000 in a summer). </p>

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<p>If you receive a scholarship, it would depend on the scholarship, but many (if not most) financial aid packages continue past 4 years. I know the federal loans/grants/scholarships do. </p>

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<p>I would be very wary about attending a small program. I have no knowledge of Lafayette specifically, but if the LAC’s aren’t pulling in many recruiters and generating 3-5+ offers per student, I would err towards a more well known state university.</p>

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<p>Thanks, everybody. Your opinions are all very helpful!</p>

<p>My son is positive that he wants to go to grad school. So he’ll also have that under his belt before he goes job hunting (other than for internships).</p>

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<p>Positive that he wants to do grad school when he’s 17 and positive he wants to do grad school when he’s 22 are two very different things. He may well follow through and go to grad school but many people change their mind about that over the course of their collegiate career. He could realize that he wants to pursue a career path where grad school wouldn’t really help him, or he could burn out on 5 more years of school. </p>

<p>Another option would be to go to one of the smaller engineering schools you mentioned and make a 5 year plan, perhaps even with a minor. It’d take some planning to make sure all the classes were available when he needed to take them but he’d have access to internships for each summer and relevant research for each year.</p>

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<p>My son is a HS Junior and has statrted to engage with colleges this year. He is seriously looking at a 3-2 program from one of several somewhat impressive top 50 National Liberal Arts Colleges (as ranked by US News) which end in Columbia University.</p>

<p>Wouldn’t the prestige of having both a Sciences BA from a respectable school and an Engineering BS from an Ivy League make up for the lack of an internship?</p>

<p>His other options would be good engineering schools like RPI, Georgia Tech, Stevens Institute, etc…</p>

<p>Which path would be more desirable to employers?</p>

<p>My son is also firm in his desire to do grad school. :slight_smile: I support him in that. I’m keeping my fingers crossed he still feels the same way when he is 22/23.</p>

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<p>Not really. “Ivy League” does not carry the weight in engineering that it does in other areas. From your list, Georgia Tech is more prestigious than any of the Ivy League schools in engineering. And, to echo the above, the BA will have an insignificant impact on your son’s graduate school and hiring prospects.</p>

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<p>Even though this is an older thread, it is important to be aware that admission to the engineering part of the 3/2 is not guaranteed. The student has to acheive/maintain a certain GPA to be considered to enter those programs and if a school offers the engineering piece at more than one other school, the student may not have the choice of which to go to but is placed where there is space.</p>

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Chiming in as a “normal” WashU engineering student. WashU accepts a ton of 3-2 students from a variety of LAC’s, so I know a good handful of people who have done this.</p>

<p>For some people, it’s a great opportunity. However, none of the people I know had the chance to do more than one internship, which has already been mentioned as a problem.</p>

<p>Also of note: when you do this, you’re taking a HUGE risk. I know people that got math/physics BA’s at their 3 school… only to learn after year 1 of the 2 that they hate engineering. One person I know got a math BA … and is now getting a second math BA at WashU because of this. 5 years for 2 BA’s in the same thing? That’s crazy.</p>

<p>It would have been much better for him to have gone to a school that had an engineering program and find out much earlier that engineering wasn’t for him.</p>

<p>Another fun tidbit - a lot of students come to WashU from these LAC’s and cannot handle the work load. In some (not all) cases their LAC’s simply weren’t as demanding and they seriously struggle when they get here (I’d imagine it’d be similar with Columbia, etc). </p>

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Agreeing with Banjo for sure. No degree is going to make up for lack of experience, at least according to the people I’ve worked for. They’ve all said they’d rather take a low-tier state school student with a track record of good experience over a top-school student with 0 experience.</p>

<p>edit: heh. didn’t realize how old this was. Either way the top part of my post is still applicable I guess.</p>

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<p>Simplelife,</p>

<p>What about LACs wth engineering programs. Swarthmore, Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh all have 4-year engineering degrees w/o sacrificing knowledge of the liberal arts? One other suggestion if your son has great stats–Harvey Mudd. Although a straight engineering/math/science school, they actually have a very stringent core in the liberal arts. Also, as part of the Claremont Consortium with access to courses at four other universities next door, he could likely study Russian there, which he might not be able to do at some of the other LACs.</p>

<p>As an alternative, if your son is sure he wants to go to grad school (note appropriate cautions form other posters), then he might consider majoring in math/physics (with a double major in history or russian studies) at an LAC and then get an MA in engineering, which gets around the internship issue. Oberlin and Grinnell are two LACs that come to mind with good placement records at grad schools in the sciences.</p>

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<p>Also agree with Banjo. I’m no engineer but I gather that in the profession, particularly in Mechanical Engineering, their are many public universities that have stronger reputations than Ivy League engineering schools. It is generally believed that Cornell has the best engineering school in the Ivy League, but I don’t think anyone would say that the department at Cornell has greater assets than the engineering schools at UMichigan, UIllinois, Purdue, Georgia Tech or Virginia Tech.</p>

<p>Also, as has been stated many times before, 3/2 programs can be problematic, hard to complete and not for everyone. My advice is to give considerable thought to an engineering university that has a fine Arts & Sciences component so that a backup plan will be easily available. Yes, the Ivy engineering programs…Cornell, Columbia and Penn and Princeton… may suit that purpose.</p>

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<p>Lakemom,<br>
This is not my understanding. I’ve spoken to admissions at both St Lawrence and Columbia to confirm guaranteed admission to Columbia if my son attended St Lawrence (and met all the prerequisites for the 3-2 program). </p>

<p>IF THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE 3-2 PROGRAM ARE MET, there is no issue. It’s a slam dunk. If they are not met, all bets are off.</p>

<p>St Lawrence also has a dual degree program with Dartmouth. The GPA requirement is higher, but the same thing applies. It’s a slam dunk. </p>

<p>I guess as a back up plan, St Lawrence also has a dual degree program with RPI. This is only appealing as a safety net for my son, as he can get into RPI on his own.</p>

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<p>maikai, depends on the school offering the 3/2 and their deal with the engineering schools they have made arrangements with. Like everything else in the college process, one would have to check with each individual school to find out and as you have discovered, you have to maintain a certain GPA which I guess you found out were different for different schools.</p>

<p>For example, read this link about Pepperdine’s</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-southern-california/1266878-usc-pepperdine-3-2-engineering-program.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-southern-california/1266878-usc-pepperdine-3-2-engineering-program.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Johnson181,
Yes, the ability to keep up the the supposedly higher work load is of concern. After speaking with Columbia, they assured me the whole reason behind the prerequisite course, GPA and minimum grade in any one course, was to ensure the student was up to the challenge. According to Columbia, the success rate of the incoming 3-2 students is as high as the “normal” incoming Junior population. In fact, it is higher than the general “normal” population if you consider all four years, including the Freshman year rate.</p>

<p>It was a major concern of mine. That’s why I addressed it with admissions.</p>

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<p>Big state universities offer liberal arts courses as well – any engineering degree program will include required humanities and social studies breadth courses as specified by ABET to maintain accreditation (even Brown has breadth requirements for engineering majors even though it has no breadth requirements for other majors). However, it is true that double majoring is more difficult when one of the majors is in engineering, due to the relatively large number of course requirements (typically 15-25% humanities and social studies breadth, 25-30% math and science, and most of the rest engineering and computer science). The 3-2 type of programs do give an additional year’s worth of schedule space to fit in the second major, though they have some disadvantages as others have described (harder to get engineering internships, transfer may not be guaranteed, financial aid, etc.).</p>

<p>The advantage of small liberal arts colleges is not the breadth of courses (which is typically less at the small colleges) but (usually) the small college environment (smaller freshman and sophomore courses, more undergraduate focus). Whether it makes up for the usually smaller course selection depends on the student and the specific school.</p>

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<p>Unless there is a real burning desire to do the second major for personal interest (as mentioned previously, it is unlikely to be significant in jobs or graduate school in engineering) where the extra year of schedule space in the 3-2 program can help, it may be better to just go to Georgia Tech or some other school good for engineering (perhaps one of your in-state public universities, depending on your state of residency). As noted, in engineering, Ivy League schools are not necessarily at the top of the prestige scale anyway.</p>