3.8 UW(but 2 C's), 33 ACT, URM female, Columbia/Penn ED

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

I am a junior in HS, and thinking about where to apply next year. I want to apply ED to Penn or Columbia. Whichever one I have a “greater” (though still extremely slim) chance of getting into. Which ED do you guys think I should do? What are my chances at these 2 schools? Meaning, should I even bother applying. I have a low gpa (3.8 UW), with 2 C’s ( C+ in honors Chem, and a C in AP Calc BC). I also have a B+ in honors bio (freshman year) and a B- in honors chem and alg2 w/trig (sophomore yr). I have taken the most rigorous course load available. I took an AP class freshman year, 2 sophomore year, and all my classes this year (8 of them) are AP/IB classes. By the time I graduate I would have taken 12 AP classes, and some of them also being IB classes.

ACT score: 33
SAT score (practice scores; for new one): 1410
Reading: 710 Math: 700
Unweighted GPA (out of 4.0): 3.8 UW | Not sure the weighed
Rank (percentile if rank is unavailable): N/A
AP (place score in parenthesis): APUSH (4) APWH(4) AP Lang (5) || APES, AP Bio, AP Euro, AP Calc BC, AP physics, AP french, AP Lit, AP microeconomis, AP gov
IB (place score in parenthesis): full IB diploma, but no scores yet
Senior Year Course Load: Ap physics, IB English HL2, IB history HL2, IB math studies SL, TOK, French 4 (Ap french), IB Biology HL2
Major Awards (USAMO, Intel etc.): AP scholar, honor roll

Extracurriculars (place leadership in parenthesis): global volunteers (secretary), model un(president), NHS, student council, have fashion/beauty youtube with over 2,000 subscribers, went to a leadership symposium at state capital for high ability HS juniors in which I met a Senator
Job/Work Experience: Summer job in 9th grade
Currently work 10 hrs a week (afterschool Friday and Sunday morning)
Volunteer/Community service: Volunteer at hospital for 3 summers (75 hrs), tutor inner city kids (30 hrs), Helped organize a fundraiser for african organization in which we raised money for a “water for Africa” project
Summer Activities: Volunteered at hospital every summer starting the summer before freshman year(will do again this summer), health careers exploration camp at local university, my summer job

Intended Major: English
State (if domestic applicant): Midwest
Country (if international applicant): U.S
School Type: competive public (250 students)
Ethnicity: Black (African)
Gender: female
Income Bracket: 70K
Hooks (URM, first generation college, etc): URM

2

You have a shot at getting in, but with a 70K family income, you’ll be applying for fin aid. It is generally a VERY BAD idea to apply to a school with a binding early decision program that locks you into that school if you will apply for fin aid as you are left at the mercy of their fin aid award. Look to schools with non binding early action, that way you can apply to regular decision schools and compare the awards. When there are differences in awards, top schools will frequently match awards from schools they consider to be peer institutions.

3

@ZBlue17 what @tdy123 is saying is not true. At least for Penn (and i am pretty sure it is the same for Columbia), if you get less money than what you put down in your financial aid application as your demonstrated need, the decision is NOT binding any more and you can apply to other colleges.

Also at Penn the ED program is given much more emphasis than in Columbia. Penn ED has an acceptance rate of 23.2% and also they accept over 55% of the entire class during ED. Penn really loves ED applicants who show commitment to the school.

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Penn95 is correct, my D is a URM Penn sophomore with scores similar to yours. The financial aid at all ivy league institutions is EXTREMELY generous and not dependent on ED or RD. They will meet your need.

5

If they don’t meet your financial need, you can break the contract

6

@Penn95 Wow! you wrote: “… what you put down in your financial aid application as your demonstrated need…” That is such great info. Didn’t know that Penn actually has a line on their fin aid ap where you get to enter your demonstrated financial need. You don’t have to provide your financial info and let them calculate “your demonstrated need,” you don’t have to fill out the fafsa, no pesky IRS forms, just put it down yourself! Awesome! No worries about whether Penn’s calculation of your demonstrated financial need might be the same as say Harvard’s or Yale’s, no worries at all about the components of an aid package, including expected student contribution from a term time or summer job, and how they may very from school to school, because you just “put down” a magic demonstrated need number.

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When applying to a school like Penn, why does needing financial aid matter for ED? If Penn is your ED and assuming it is generally known as the school with the best FA on your list, isn’t it ok to apply ED? Either you can afford it or not so I don’t see why you need to compare when applying to a 100% need met school. This is assuming you aren’t applying to HYP.

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@tdy123 There is indeed a line that you put down how much you need and then of course they calculate your demonstrated need based on your financial records. I just phrased it sloppily. This doesn’t take away from the fact that your original point is untrue. If the money they give you is less than what you have indicated that u need then the ED contract in no longer binding. So a person who has Penn or Columbia as their first choice and wants to apply early, shouldn’t be deterred by the fact that ED is binding. If u are unhappy with the amount and terms of the FA you get, then nothing stops you from applying to other colleges RD.

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Ok thanks guys, that’s great info to know! But do you guys (and any others reading this) think I should even apply? Because my gpa in a major weakness. Especially the 2 C’s (although in difficult STEM classes that don’t pertain to my prospective english major).

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@ZBlue17 Your GPA is not a major weakness. Yes, it is below average (for Penn the average was 3.94 last year) but calling it a major weakness is a slight exaggeration. There are many people admitted with GPAs comparable to yours. I think that while you do not have incredibly impressive stats, you are still well within the feasible range for admission so you should just go for it, if you want it. If you wanna maximize your chances you should apply ED and penn really loves its ED applicants. it is always better to try and not get in than never try and always wonder what if, especially given that you do have a chance based on your stats.

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@ZBlue17 While both Ivy league schools, Penn and Columbia are very different schools. Penn is more pre-professional while combining an interdisciplanary approach, whereas Columbia is more theoretical in its interdisciplinary core curriculum. Therefore to help answer your question one would have to have an idea of your career objective in majoring in English. Are you studying English for the sake of mastering English or is it a means to develop yourself for a profession? U Penn"s English department is ranked slightly higher than Columbia’s.

At Penn, English is one of the largest departments in the School of Arts and Sciences and employs a prestigious faculty full of experts in many literary periods and subfields. The undergraduate program offers students the opportunity to take classes in everything from language and literature to film and digital media. The program ensure students have a thorough understanding of history and interpretation, but allows them to choose many electives that help lead to successful careers in medicine, advertising, teaching and even social media.

At Columbia, The English department works to expose students to traditional literary texts and themes, while embracing how literature has changed and developed. Undergraduate students are taught to read critically as they study literature through history, genre and geography lenses.

You indicated in your resume that you have done much hospital work and are interested in a health career?

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Ok I think I’ll definitely apply ED. Now I just have to find a way to convince my parents to let me visit penn and columbia over the summer…

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@runswimyoga yes, I want to major in english, but pre-professional. Nothing is set in stone yet, but I know for sure that I want to further my education by going to graduate school (phd) or going to medical school. I was thinking about minoring in french or biology, subjects I really enjoy right now.

And thanks for the insight, that was really helpful! It sounds a bit like penn would be a better ED choice, given my future aspirations…But columbia is sooooo beautiful, I just can’t get over it!

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@Penn95 Here is a link to the current Penn fin aid form http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/pdf/2016-17/Penn-Financial-Aid-Supplement-prospective-16-17.pdf care to point out the “This is the amount I need” line, or anything even remotely resembling it???

Non-Binding early action gives applicants many options. Non-Binding early decision gives them few options.

Non-Binding early action benefits the student, Binding early decision benefits the school. It is for schools with “yield envy” that want to boost their yield stats at the expense of their applicants options.

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@tdy123 lol this is getting tedious. you just say the same baseless things over and over again. the link you posted is just the penn supplement. there is such an entry in the CSS/financial aid profile you have to fill out.

Whether you like it or not, the policy at Penn is that if they don’t match the financial aid, your ED is no longer binding. You can just call the Penn admissions office and ask. Besides it is very rare that a school like Penn or Columbia will not meet your financial need.

Applying ED is not for students who are unsure and wanna compare and shop around. It is for students who have that school as their first choice and are committed to attending. The great thing with ED schools with the kind of resources that Penn or Columbia have, is that is extremely rare that they will not meet your financial need. And even in the off chance that they don’t and u are unable to afford the school as a result, u can break the contract and apply RD to other schools. So it doesn’t change anything.
Now all these abstract remarks you keep bringing up about whether ED benefits the school or the students or the “yield envy” of certain schools are sort of pointless in this discussion.

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@tdy123 There was indeed such a line on the link you provided, I even called Penn about that particular section, not sure that they were looking for me to tell them…what I thought I could pay? and they said yes. Put down what you in your mind can pay. This is the section

Estimated Resources
4.
From the sources listed below, provide the amount from each that will be available for your education expenses in the coming year. Do not include anticipated financial aid.

They told me if they don’t meet the amount to cover tuition (less what I think I can pay- as I put on the form), then I was free to get out of binding.

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zblue17 Yes, I think you have a very good chance of being admitted to either one. ED should also help.

Try to convince your parents to let you visit. It is easy to visit both in one trip. They are fairly close together.

If you are thinking about minoring in something, that will be easier at Penn. Columbia’s core curriculum makes it more difficult to Minor.

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Thanks for all the replies, it’s been very helpful! Any other comments?

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@ZBlue17 Let me shed some light since I am a recently accepted ED in a similar situation. I had only a 3.85 gpa. I got in and I even got into M&T which is one of, if not the hardest program to get into. Here are the things I think that matter. Your lower grades are not in your major subject. Mine were not. Yours appear not to be. Your gpa is high for your school. I go to a top ranked school and a 3.85 is still very high for my school. And you show an upward trend. Do better this year. Your gpa will go up and you will look better. That said I didn’t have a C in any class so I can’t speak specifically to a C. I had a few scattered B’s. My school doesn’t give + or - grades so it sucks. An 89.4 is the same grade as a 79.5. This hits your gpa hard. Now admittedly my ECs are kind of insane so that would be next advice. Enter contests in what you love and are passionate about. Lots are coming up here soon and they will change everything. A lot of my national level awards and honors came second semester of junior year so its not too late! But don’t try to do something just to get in. It won’t work. Do something you already love and are passionate about and you will have better odds of succeeding.

Next on financial aid. I applied ED and the number they gave me before applying was a little high but they said they would evaluate my unique circumstances. They did. They give you you about 3 wks to decide if you can live with that number or not. If not you just don’t accept. Yes they ask what you can afford. But in my experience it doesn’t matter. They gave me a number higher than that number I wrote down lol. But they will reevaluate your financial aid if you have unique circumstances.

Lastly if you are a female urm I recommend applying to fly in programs. I do not know how they find you but Penn’s was invite only. They send you an application to apply. Columbia’s I got an invite to apply but my guidance counselor also had the link so people who didn’t get invited could still apply. This will help for several major reasons. You get to go see the schools to see which one you like better. Penn wasn’t on my radar at all. MIT was first then Columbia. That all changed after I got to spend some real time at each school. Not just the fluff of the school tours. After visiting MIT I never even applied. Not for me at all. And I ranked Penn above Columbia and Dartmouth and any other schools I visited. I loved Penn and knew it was the school for me. Secondly it will give you a shot a figuring out your shot of getting in. If you don’t get in the fly ins that doesn’t mean you won’t get in the school. They only take 50 kids at Columbia and 100 at Penn so obviously a ton more than that get in, so that doesn’t mean give up by any means. But if you do get in its a pretty good indicator you will get in ED. The numbers I’ve heard are around 95% of fly in kids are accepted if they apply ED.

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@girlcoder congrats and thank you so much for your help! What’s your major? And what is M&T?