33 ACT - pre med - WHERE TO GO TO UG??

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>One thing worth considering is the strength of your child’s high school preparation.</p>

<p>Did your child’s high school offer a lot of APs or other highly rigorous courses? Did your child take those courses? Did your child score well on AP or IB tests after taking those courses?</p>

<p>At highly selective colleges (such as Wash U or Williams), there are going to be a LOT of premedical students who are extremely well prepared. If your child has comparable preparation, then your child is prepared to compete with them, and I see no disadvantage to choosing such a school (both are wonderful places, each in a different way). Bartleby007’s thinking makes sense.</p>

<p>But if your child comes from a high school that does not offer such rigorous academic preparation, then the As in science courses at WashU or Williams are likely to go to people other than your child simply because those other students have better preparation. In that case, a less selective undergraduate school might be a good idea.</p>

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<p>Are you from Texas ~ I may not have read carefully enough. Is your son willing to stay in Texas? (I have 2 in college out-of-state so I understand the attraction of new & different) If he’s willing to stay in Texas, I would swap the “known” for prestige due to the distraction of- I’ll call it - the adjustment factor. As you said, many students basically blow their med school chance right out of-the-gate first semester. If he chooses to go to a new area, I would suggest taking a very light and non-risky schedule first semester. Gee, I think I’d recommend that anywhere. There is no rush in getting through the pre-reqs, but serious implications for not doing well (and in this case excellent). He sounds very capable and has the stuff.</p>

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<p>I agree. I’ve seen quite a few students leave our high school thinking they would be pre-med. Those who went to reach colleges (true reach, not lottery school reach where their stats fit) often dropped out of the pre-med hunt fairly quickly as they simply could not make the grades needed. Those who went to match (or safety) schools have done well or changed due to their desires changing - not because they had to.</p>

<p>There IS a difference in the content of the classes. All schools have Bio 101, but the content can be vastly different. At a top school the material is in greater depth knowing that the majority of the students have had AP Bio (or similar) and need more of a challenge. At mid to lower schools the course can duplicate AP Bio or a CC class for the most part. My youngest son who has had the privilege of sitting in on both types of classes calls the latter “Bio Lite.” I’ve had the opportunity to grab a couple of tests from higher ranked schools (not stolen - profs gave them out) and shown them to lower ranked school students. They’d have been blown away.</p>

<p>BUT, the depth of knowledge is not needed for med school. The basic knowledge is all that is needed, so for med school admissions, it’s only the GPA that matters (MCAT and ECs too, but regarding classwork). Med schools want to know you’ve been at or near the top of your competition - not of the nation. Kids at non-top tier schools have become successful doctors right next to students who came from top tier schools. They teach you what you need to know to become a doctor at med school.</p>

<p>So… you need to know your student.</p>

<p>I’ve seen top kids bored stiff at lower level colleges and wishing they’d picked somewhere stronger. Some transfer to stronger schools.</p>

<p>I’ve seen kids too challenged who dropped out of pre-med or out of school all together.</p>

<p>I’ve also seen great matches. ;)</p>

<p>My guy (slightly higher stats than your student) opted for a Top 30 school (U Rochester) where he’s easily into the Top 25% of stats, but is still challenged. He’s one who would have been bored at a lower level school (though would have made the best of it) and he’s absolutely loving where he is at now. He’s working at labs there over the summer. He could also have handled lottery schools, but we wanted merit aid…</p>

<p>One of his friends (lower stats) is at a lower level school (free ride as his stats were great for that school) and loving it. The material is right for each student. Both should have great odds for med school should they continue to want to go there.</p>

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<p>This is excellent info as well.</p>

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<p>creek, thanks for the input. and congrats to your son! and YOU!! as to my son’s prep, very top hs in state, public, 10 or so ap’s. always takes the challenging courses, even senior year, despite to gpa hit as he could go lighter this year. but gpa estimated to be 4.1 ending. altho he CAN get in, possibly, some greater reach schools, I think college is more than academics, and want him to have the opportunity to grow in other ways. I live in a ‘competitive’ (to say it mildly!) area where most kids are reaching…but y’all help put a better light on that. and your stating that the depth some schools go into is not really needed for med school or MCAT…that they teach THAT to you IN MS. Thanks for that clarification and reasoning. He would get bored in an ‘easy’ party school, academically anyway! And a Wash U? I don’t know, still pondering that. I will check out more schools, but I am learning better where to aim. Thanks, sincerely!!!</p>

<p>snug, you say “swap the known for the prestige”, meaning take the known over the prestige?? ( i think that is what you are saying) Yes, we are in Texas. and he will apply to the 3 major state schools. JIC. The adjustment factor is huge that first year and I hear time and time again of kids blowing it all in one ‘prestigous’ year. so sad!!! thanks for the input.</p>

<p>Marion, yes he has the background of an excellent prep hs. 10 ap’s. He is quite smart, but does study. It is not a ‘gimme’. Some pals just get it, without preparation. He is not that kid. He doesn’t '‘strain’, but does crack the books. appreciate the input!</p>

<p>parent56, thanks for the pm offer. I will check out UA. I have heard what you say more than once. And great med school, and town. Thanks, I like the idea of a science honors program. I wasn’t aware of that! With these ‘honor’ programs at state schools…Do you know if the classwork is harder? Just wondering the GPA hit versus the luxury of early registration, better dorms and stuff. Ole Miss, we visited as a honor option, did NOT appeal to him though. He thought it felt like 13th grade and I wonder if he would slip into the party on Tuesday night scene…altho I do know all schools have that element! (no offense, OM)</p>

<p>Zilch, funny who you meet, huh!! Good idea, the community does matter. thanks!</p>

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<p>(thought i’d post before I accidently deleted!)</p>

<p>zboy, checked out U Charleston. Very easy to get in, which could be good or bad. Seems a bit party heavy?? Great town tho!! And another plug for Trinity, CT. I will check that out next. I think I might have to move with him!!! Beautiful area! thanks for posting!</p>

<p>momofzag, havent’ looked in the midwest. you mentioned a whole crop of schools I know very little about. But, this would satisfy his out of state ideal, and not be too rowdy!!! I will check these out pronto! I think Rochester might be too far for this southern boy at 18…the distraction of it all could affect his adjustment I fear. Thanks for the midwest options!!</p>

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<p>netti, just to clarify… it was talking about UAB not UA. UAB is in birmingham and has the med school… UA is the bigger school in tuscaloosa. the honors classes at the 2 schools are quite different also. honors at uab requires an extra application and interviews. it is a cohesive group of about 60 students (in sci tech) per year, that have very specific interests… ie sci tech is research oriented… son has been doing research since first semester as a freshman. S2 is doing honors classes for his degrees and would say the classes are harder, but he is also in honors college for sci tech. . there is the early reg perk, but it also gives the advantage of being with a cohesive group of students over 4 years that have the same interests…not just honors classes that anyone with a certain gpa can take. </p>

<p>m2ck could tell you more about UA and its honors programs and honors classes.</p>

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<p>Just for clarification… MCAT prep is done in college. Dr prep is done in med school.</p>

<p>My suggestion is to have your guy sit in on classes at prospective colleges. Combine that with talking to (or staying with) current students. He will likely get a feel for the fit he wants. My guy knew almost instantly that he wanted a dedicated research U after comparing them to LACs and our in state biggie for pre-med (as well as some lower ranked schools). For him the difference was in the classes and the student. He found he didn’t care a hoot about dorms, big name sports, etc. Your guy should be able to find what fits him.</p>

<p>For closer to you, definitely consider Emory and Rice.</p>

<p>If he’s cracked the books to get where he’s at, he’s at an advantage IMO. Kids who have been at the top and never studied tend to need a bad grade or two to potentially learn how to study (not always, but a tendency I’ve seen).</p>

<p>There are definitely distractions at college - good ones as well as partying majors. Med schools will want to see ECs, so his focus can’t all be studying. He’ll need to find a balance. For that you want a school where he doesn’t always have to study, but it sounds like he could do well anywhere IMO - pending those distractions. Work ethic never shows up on scores.</p>

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<p>We have the fortunate opportunity to be in the internet age. You can easily go to Youtube and watch true biology classes from several institutions and decide for yourself. I absolutely agree that universities vary tremendously at the depths they will teach their classes. My DD is enrolled in a general chemistry class at a community college. We watched Berkeley’s lectures online and found that Berkeley went into materials that were unnecessary for the MCAT or medical school. We watched a video from, I believe, MIT. Great and interesting information. But again, why study harder, hurt your GPA and potentially kill your medical career dreams if you don’t have to? Especially when there may be little to no benefit in medical school.</p>

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<p>Just a note, sometimes the selectivity of a school does not relate to the depth of the material that’s presented. I’ve watched many of the Berkeley and MIT videos that frugaldoctor is referring to, and actually think that the most demanding intro Chemistry course (in terms of critical thinking) comes from UC Irvine. </p>

<p>Also, be prepared for the possibility that your son will change his major or drop premed all together. I know many people, including plenty with >3.5 college GPAs who came into college gung ho about the college -> med school route and later realized that they had no interest in being a doctor. For that reason, I wouldn’t let the premed program dictate where your son looks at. Decide based on the usual factors (cost, level of peers, size, location, overall fit, etc) and then look at the premed advising.</p>

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<p>To answer this question - my guy chose to because he absolutely loves it - loves knowledge, information, and all that goes with it. He always has. His GPA certainly isn’t hurt. In his first two semesters he’s only had one A- in a writing course. All the rest were As, before any curve was applied. He’d have been bored in “Bio Lite.” (Actually, he took Bio-Lite as a high school course as did many attending his school.) As I said before - he knew he found his school (compared to other less academic schools) when he set foot on campus and talked with other students. Not all students are as interested in academics there as he is, of course (true of any school), but he easily has a peer group and more.</p>

<p>Student A is not the same as Student B. If you know your student is not interested in the deeper academics, then choose accordingly. There are many colleges out there with oodles of different “fits.” There is no one “right” answer that fits all students.</p>

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<p>This is definitely true too. I know of many who changed their minds even with good records. Be sure he’s at a school he likes and can get a good education from.</p>

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<p>This would confirm the med school disdain for pre-req cc courses deeming them “easier” and “trying to take the easy route” rather than challenging oneself and succeeding. It’s what I’ve seen as well with both science and math courses. Cc courses tend to be on par with lower academic 4 year schools IME. Naturally, I don’t have access to all cc courses from all ccs, so there can be exceptions. Anyway, it’s not the info that med schools feel is needed. The trait they are looking for is willing to take on a challenge and succeeding (according to the sessions we sat in on). It’s that trait that tends to make one a successful dr candidate (so they say).</p>

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<p>Most med schools guard their info rather jealously, but a few offer some tidbits. Here are two who are more open (Vandy used to be, but now I get a message telling me I need to log in…):</p>

<p>For the first, hover over the blue links below the text.</p>

<p>[Who</a> Chooses WU](<a href=“http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx]Who”>http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx)</p>

<p>[University</a> of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry - Class of 2015 Profile - Rochester Medicine - Summer 2011 - University of Rochester Medical Center](<a href=“http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/publications/rochester-medicine/summer-2011/online-specials/class-of-2015.cfm]University”>http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/publications/rochester-medicine/summer-2011/online-specials/class-of-2015.cfm)</p>

<p>You’ll see a variety of schools, but a general trend.</p>

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<p>Since you are in Texas, and your son is very qualified, do take a look at the Undergraduate to Medical School Initiative at Texas Tech. It’s a program that guarantees acceptance to TTU medical school and waved the MCAT requirement. You can go from HS to getting your MD in 7-8 years. </p>

<p>Students apply as HS seniors. Worth a look: [TTUHSC</a> :: School of Medicine : Admissions : UMSI](<a href=“http://www.ttuhsc.edu/som/admissions/umsi.aspx]TTUHSC”>http://www.ttuhsc.edu/som/admissions/umsi.aspx)</p>

<p>Sorry if this was mentioned earlier! I know someone who did this and had great success.</p>

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<p>“If he’s cracked the books to get where he’s at, he’s at an advantage IMO.” - I agree!</p>

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<p>What’s interesting about the Wash U list is that in general the top schools, the ones where it’s supposedly hardest to earn a high GPA, are extremely over represented, even after accounting for the clustering of high stats students at particular institutions.</p>

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<p>whenhen That could be because students from those selective schools might some from wealthier families that can afford WashU tuition.</p>

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<p>first of all, y’all are INCREDIBLY HELPFUL!!! thanks so much!!!</p>

<p>parent56, thanks for clarifying. i did have it wrong. that sounds interesting, UAB. I will research more on it. yours are both at UAB?? “early reg perk”…do you mean early registration for classes? I do think that helps, and being with these 60 kids (the premed track?) sounds great. I am definitely putting this on the short list!</p>

<p>creekland, no, I meant they will teach you (what you need to know as a dr) in MS. good idea to sit in on a class at several schools he is considering. the student body is so important, you can’t help but be influenced if others aren’t studying much…he likes studying and learning, so it is a good thing (he’ll be doing plenty OF it!!) good info both posts. I do think he prefers a likable but less partying peer. from what you read, all schools are partying all the time, save MIT types, even then, IDK. I think he likes challenging stuff. always chooses AP over reg. and is doing lots of shadowing (since soph year) to really see the med stuff. but, who knows! I can see him doing law, too. so most places that have one have the other…again, no ‘pre-law’ major either. thanks for your help!!!</p>

<p>whenhen, ill tell him to check out the irvine youtube stuff. never thought of that. yep, go for the fit, as I know many change, good reminder!! thanks</p>

<p>frugal doctor, i just read your words to my son. “Great and interesting information. But again, why study harder, hurt your GPA and potentially kill your medical career dreams if you don’t have to? Especially when there may be little to no benefit in medical school.” Thanks, well said! let me/him see the difference in an elite school vs. a more normal/yet appropriate school. well put, thanks</p>

<p>still thinking some of the mid-level LAC and some of this honors/big u makes the most sense. Like the smaller like-minded (hopefully) peers in honors…possibly both choices.</p>

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<p>Don’t place too much importance on the fact that Cornell is heavily represented on almost all lists such as those in post 41. This is mostly a matter of size. Cornell is considerably bigger than most of its peer schools. There are more students from Cornell than, say, Haverford for the same reason that there are more from California than Wyoming.</p>

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<p>^^^ I don’t know that it’s the “affording the tuition” part, though some could be due to that. I suspect it’s more that they are a Top 10 med school (sometimes in the Top 5) and can be very picky with who they choose. Rochester is also private, but a little lower in the rankings and shows more diversity among schools. It makes sense that those wanting a top med school also chose a top undergrad - or vice versa - those wanting a top undergrad are also interested in a top med school.</p>

<p>It’s also interesting to compute the “success” rate of getting even an interview (URoc’s allows this). This is not an easy endeavor - aside from a few states who have a med school dedicated to in-state students. Even then, it’s not super easy to get a slot. Wash U is one presentation we went to a couple of years back. The Dr leading one presentation told us if he had to get into (any) med school today, he likely wouldn’t be successful - yet now he’s on the admissions committee and in charge of some fancy stuff. </p>

<p>If heading pre-med - it’s best to be prepared rather than stunned IMO.</p>

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<p>NettiK, I mean you can if you want. I was just pointing out that even though a school is more selective doesn’t necessarily mean that the courses will be more rigorous than less selective ones. If your son has a rigorous grounding in physics, then Berkeley’s or MIT’s intro chem courses might be more interesting, but the lecturers and exams (at least the released ones) seem to demand less critical thinking than UCI’s. </p>

<p>Also, salander, Rochester seems to have a greater distribution of undergraduate institutions even though the COA is roughly comparable to Wash U. Not really an argument, just an observation.</p>