<p>NY Times article [URL="<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/education/17cornell.html?ref=education"]here[/URL">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/education/17cornell.html?ref=education"]here[/URL</a>]</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The normal reaction to a poor grade is disappointment and maybe sadness. Not depression. Please don’t equate depression with “sadness.”</p>
<p>Depression has a biological root. That’s why some people experience unimaginable horrors and still come out on top while other people throw themselves off a bridge after getting a 2.0 GPA. </p>
<p>Grades don’t cause depression. I would even say that grades don’t contribute to depression in the sense that it is always there whether you get good grades or not. It is a maladaptive response to life’s stressors (and when you get old enough, you’ll realize that they are relatively low on the list of life’s challenges). If it’s not grades, then something else is going to exacerbate the depression. Therefore, we should attempt to treat the depression and not just treat the grades.</p>
<p>Engineering, medical school, etc. are rigorous fields. We can’t dumb down our engineering curriculum or premed curriculum. That does a disservice to everyone entering those fields. The purpose of Cornell is to provide a solid education and to prepare us well for our post-graduate life (whether it’s grad school or the workforce). </p>
<p>As for your last comment, the median GPA for engineering was around a 3.1 in 1996. I don’t know what it is now, but I’m guessing it’s not too far from 3.4. Lastly, you know I was a science major and am in med school, right? I think you’re going to lose if you try to go the “I’ve got it tough” route. Depression is not a normal response to a tough curriculum, no matter how you slice or dice it.</p>
<p>TO CLARIFY:</p>
<p>Someone either has depression or they don’t. If you have depression and you get a bad grade on a test, it may or may not send you into a depressive funk of sorts. If you do not have depression, getting a bad grade on a test won’t send you into a funk, or at least a depressive state. Therefore, the proper treatment for such a problem is to treat the depression, not the bad grades. </p>
<p>This is because depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain caused by a number of factors. One should treat the imbalance in the brain (the actual problem) instead of, or at least in addition to the numerous troubles that come along with it. </p>
<p>Analogy: depression is like having a broken arm. It hurts a lot, and you can treat the pain with pain killers (IE reduce stress levels, post nice signs everywhere, put nets under bridges) but that won’t heal your arm. To properly heal your arm, you must see an orthopedic surgeon and get a cast (go to therapy sessions and/or go on anti-depressants).</p>
<p>Being SAD and being DEPRESSED are two VERY different things. One can be saddened by something, but not be depressed, and I frequently find that people who have not had bouts of depression don’t understand the difference. If you don’t have depression, getting a bad grade on a test can make you sad, or stressed out, but it won’t make you depressed.</p>
<p>What I hope comes out of these threads is that the few posters who really don’t have a clue about depression & mental illness open their minds & gain an understanding.
Healthy people don’t committ suicide only because of prelims - there’s a whole history that went on before prelims & Ithaca weather. There’s a huge difference between feeling pressured/depressed over a particular circumstance and clinical depression/chemical imbalance. Tboone’s post #67 says it perfectly!</p>
<p>I just reread this thread & realize the obvious: cadmiumred & frommeto are either the same person or mother/child!! How funny when cadmium compliments frommeto “As young as Frommeto may be, his posts are the most passionate and logical on this thread.”</p>
<p>I think median grades for engineering maybe a lot lower. I just recently received 20-30 resumes from the engineering school, and most of them were around 3.0. There were very few close to 3.5. 3.4 maybe the average for the whole school. On the other hand, it didn’t stop us from making offers to people with 3.0 because we know how difficult Cornell engineering is.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>unlikely based on other prior posts. The one Cornell expert is just a high school student.</p>
<p>“iseewhatyoudidthere”</p>
<p>I didn’t do anything there, that’s what we used to call it. Maybe they don’t use that descriptor any more?</p>
<p>^^ True, he’s a HS student, but Cad could have another child - who thinks just like her.</p>
<p>This would’ve been a really good opportunity to have an intelligent discourse on depression but unfortunately it degenerated to bickering/bashing about Cornell.</p>
<p>Depression is VERY common, probably more common than most of you realize. I see SSRI’s, SNRI’s, etc. on the charts of probably 20% of the patients I meet. And these are the ones who actually sought help. There are probably many people with untreated depression out there. </p>
<p>It just does such a disservice to the entire field of mental illness to attribute it to bad grades.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I can’t debate your personal experience. I’m just quoting a document that was posted on Cornell’s Division of Institutional Research and Planning website. The average GPA in the engineering school was 3.0-3.1 back in 1996. I’m not saying engineering’s not hard. Even if the average GPA in the engineering school is still only 3.1 today, I would make the same comment: that the average engineer is doing well. We’re not talking about premed here. You don’t need a 3.8 in engineering. A 3.3-3.5 GPA will open a lot of doors for you as an engineer.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>the first time I actually heard it was from an article a day or two ago. But I forgot until 9:34 this morning.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sounds like bad reporting to me for it to suggest a causation where one hasn’t been demonstrated via research. </p>
<p>If the causation pattern looked like this:
Academic Pressure –> Mental Illness(Depression—>Suicide
then you would have to then expect that intense universities have a higher rate(remember, this is adjusted for school population size. Cornell’s student body is 4 times larger than Brown’s, for instance, so you’d expect their number of suicides to be 4 times higher) with this causation pattern:
Even Higher Academic Pressure –> Even Higher Rate of Depression –> Even Higher Rate of Suicide. </p>
<p>We don’t find that last step—higher rate of suicide, statistically, which is relevant when trying to figure out causation. Even if we did find a higher rate, it still wouldn’t prove causation since correlation isn’t the same as causation. But right now we don’t even have a correlation between level of academic intensity and suicide rate, which would suggest that we don’t have causation. </p>
<p>I don’t think the solution is for intense schools to ease up. Intense schools should offer counseling and support and outreach, which they do, and those who are suffering who find it unbearable perhaps should not be there. I know someone who transferred out of Cornell who was dealing with a disorder when said person attended. This person found a different institution that had a much lighter workload to be much more bearable and suitable to said person’s needs while he/she coped and got better. Today the person is much more healthy mentally and now actually endures a workload at work that is more intense than he/she experienced at Cornell, yet finds the workload to be just fine, even enjoyable, since he/she is healthy and can therefore cope with that level of stress.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that stress doesn’t end when one graduates Cornell and that many individuals attending Cornell are planning on going into positions in the workforce that will be just as, if not more, intense than their education. For all the intensity that is the typical undergrad education at Cornell, I’m pretty sure it is not more intense and perhaps might even pale in comparison to one’s third year of medical school or first year of law school or first year at a big law firm or first three years of I-banking. Cornell attracts plenty of workaholics who will spend the rest of their life doing the same and who seek out that level of rigor early to prepare them for what is to come.</p>
<p>as one who dabbles in the statistical sciences often for work, I enjoy the well articulated posts of justbreathe.</p>
<p>indeed, they are good posts.</p>
<p>also…just must mention that the media is once again very frustrating. I’m checking my normal online news and see “Cornell, campus of gorges, fights suicide stigma” as a headline. how many people will click through and read the statistics and administrator statements? very few! foolish foolish headline is manufacturing the stigma!</p>
<p>The person writing the news must have been rejected from Cornell years ago.</p>
<p>perhaps. It’s also what the media does, they want people to click on the articles and stuff like this sells better.</p>
<p>There are some really epic comments on the NY Times article “over 50% of the faculty is severely depressed, but they covered up the study” blah blah blah</p>
<p>Dear JustBreathe:</p>
<p>Thank you again for your posts. Although the posts have been concentrating on academic pressures, I also feel that there are social pressures as well in including the frat scene. As I mentioned on another thread here, the frats pressure the kids to join their archaic clubs and encourage heavy drinking as well as gambling at a nearby casino. The drinking as another poster indicated, can lead to depression. Both drinking and gambling can lead to addictions so why doesn’t the school shut the frats down already?</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure you are no longer posting for actual discussion but rather are specifically out to start arguments.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The casino is a ton of fun. And it’s entirely legal. And they really do invite great artists and comedians to perform. What is the issue here? And just how hard is it to say no? Or not respond to an email invitation. The day you’re pressured into suicidal depression from being invited on a social trip to a Casino/Performing Arts Venue is the day you really need to reevaluate a few things in life.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And apparently so can overbearing parents. Not that you know much about it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This just might be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. Ever.</p>
<p>I think we should just lock everyone in cages.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And that thread was closed because it devolved into hostility.</p>
<p>What do people think of the steps Cornell IS taking to address the current situation? This article was in a post above, I’m just bringing it down to highlight it and ask that question:</p>
<p>[After</a> 3 Suspected Suicides, a Shaken Cornell Reaches Out - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/education/17cornell.html?ref=education]After”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/education/17cornell.html?ref=education)</p>