Hi, can anyone explain why the 4 year graduation rate at CWRU is a 66% vs other schools like UNC 85%?
Where did you get that rate?
https://case.edu/ir/sites/case.edu.ir/files/2018-04/2017_Fall_Retention-Tables_Final.pdf
Graduation Rate seems to be around 80%
I had the same question/concern regarding the graduation rate. Maybe I am not reading the table linked above correctly, but I don’t see a four-year graduation rate of 80% for any of the years for which that data is available…
When averaged over the five years shown, the link in reply #1 indicates a 65.14% four-year graduation rate at CWRU.
This U.S. News article allows for a comparison of the four-year graduation rates of a variety of colleges:
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate
Tech-oriented schools with a lot of engineering majors tend to have low 4-year graduation rates.
There are typically a lot more requirements for a bachelor’s degree in engineering than there are for a bachelor’s degree in liberal arts or business. Everything has to go right in order to complete an ABET-accredited engineering curriculum in four years; if you fail a class or change majors, you can easily get off-track and need an extra semester or two to finish up.
Some current 4-year graduation rates, as posted at the US Dept of Education’s “College Navigator” website:
75% Carnegie Mellon
64% Case Western
61% RPI
61% Virginia Tech
52% Colorado Mines
47% Cal Poly SLO
41% Georgia Tech
39% Stevens Inst Tech
The 6-year graduation rates are usually much better. For example, the 4-year rates for Stevens and GA Tech look ugly, but the 6-year rates are 83% and 86% respectively (CWRU is 82%). In fact, most of those students probably graduate within 5 years (because they only need an extra semester or two), but the 4-year and 6-year rates are the ones that are typically reported.
The above raises an interesting question. Which tech-focused school registers the highest four-year graduation rate? By the U.S. News ranking (reply #3), it would appear to be Harvey Mudd, at 85%, followed by MIT, at 84%.
How does the percentage of engineering majors at UNC compare to the percentage at CWRU ?
Maybe it would be more realistic to compare CWRU with North Carolina State, which is the principal public engineering school in North Carolina. In that case, NCSU’s 4-year graduation rate is 48%.
60% of Stevens students are in the Co-op program, which includes two semesters of full time work experience in a professional internship off campus, and is a five year program by design. MIT has no formal co-op for example, so it and others without such programs will appear to have high four year graduation rates compared to schools that do. You have to read the details, tvis is an apples-to-oranges comparison.
GA Tech too has a formal Co-op program. Students apply to the program knowing it will require five years from the start (they pay tuition for four years, and the co-op internship is paid by the company for which the student works). Four year graduation rates by themselves tell you little. Both Stevens and GA Tech graduates enjoy among the highest starting and midcareer salaries of all universities in America, which is the bottom line.
Yes, I should have also added that many tech-oriented schools put lots of students in co-op programs, which means that they won’t graduate in four years. This includes CRWU:
Also, some tech-oriented schools, like Cal Poly SLO, are noted for undergraduate architecture as well as engineering. An accredited undergraduate BArch program takes 5 years by design, so those students are guaranteed to depress the 4-year graduation rate, even without co-ops,I’ve always laughed at architecture “requiring” 5 years. It’s less complex than engineering, math, physics, chemistry, etc., which are typically 4 years (exclusive of co-ops). Same for pharmacy, etc. as well.
CWRU has a coop program as well
The Stevens curriculum is designed so that non co-op students can graduate in 4 years. If one compares the four year graduation rate of non-coop students with that of those of other schools they favorably compare. I suspect that is also true of the other schools listed here that have “low” 4 year graduation rates. It is not impossible to graduate from an ABET accredited engineering program in 4 years. The student simply must be disciplined and focused.
So do you think there are reasons other than CWRU engineering/co-op that could be contributing to the low 4-year graduation rate?
Yes, in general (not just CWRU) other reasons include: inability to get the classes needed due to over or under enrollment; necessity to retake classes because a student dropped due to a failing grade; students not taking the necessary number of credit hours per semester (usually 16) in order to graduate in 4 years. Back in the day when my husband was at Case there was a shake up in the Math department because students were consistently failing and doing poorly in certain classes and were not able to move on in the math sequence, several professors were let go after inconsistencies in their grading were revealed.
In a properly run program the school should have sufficient resources to schedule sufficient numbers class sections to assure all students can take the necessary courses at the proper times so one can graduate on time. That is a failing or deficiency of the school if it cannot assure that. Engineering is a heavy workload and students must be disciplined and committed to finish in 4 years. The average course load at Stevens fkr example is 18 credits per semester and some 145-152 credits are required to graduate yet the majority of non co-op students still graduate in 4 years, reflecting a well run program and the discipline of the students.
I initially had a panic attack when I read the graduation rates showing CWRU (I’d personally calculated a 66% attrition rate, based on entering and graduating numbers from somewhere, so very much appreciate this question!; and Stevens, another school we’re looking at) with such low graduation rates until I read the disclaimer that that was after four years. That makes SO much sense! One critical consideration when we’ve been looking at schools is the strength of their co-op program. Some schools, such as CMU and Penn State, don’t emphasize their co-op programs in order to graduate students within four years (I actually asked PSU about this because I hadn’t understood why a school wouldn’t encourage more co-ops). It’s a tradeoff. Some companies look down on students graduating without co-op experience; otoh, does the graduation certificate from a place like CMU get you in other doors?
Many Case students in accounting, and engineering, do 5 year masters degrees and co op degrees. The co op degrees require at least 3 experiences at a company and some of those end up being an entire semester. Its a way to work your way through junior and senior year for lower income students we know at CWRU. Some of the five year masters students get their bachelors in four years but some do not. The fifth year is often funded for the students we know in EE and accounting and mathematics. I am hearing about students doing Case masters degrees in data science, also fully funded, so some do not graduate with their class. Computer science students do not need co op programs as the summer jobs in that field pay enormously well and students have no need to stretch the degree to five years, but some do take a masters and get a higher starting salary. Many west coast jobs for CWRU graduates in CS.
@Befuddled1to2 I think summer work and co op work are nearly the same for the resume. Co op programs vary in quality of assignments but may lead to an offer, from the co op firm. Some Co op programs can limit a student to one company for three semesters and that may be too limiting for some students. And Computer Science co ops during a semester are getting more rare, but still can be arranged. In CS, it may be more cost effective to just get the degree done, then find work, as there are so many open jobs in data science and CS right now.
In fact students at CMU are so well trained after two years, there is now a college drop out rate into CS jobs. So yes, CMU drop outs are making six figure salaries in CS on the west coast,
but they are the top talent, and may not be the “normal kids”. Its best to get a 4 year college degree in CS for the best career options down the road. Government positions require a 4 year degree to apply. Teachers need 4 year degrees in most states. Professional engineering exam require a 4 year credited program.
Co oping may be a waste of a year, for CS majors only. Engineering majors, its completely different and co ops are usually a good thing. It is harder and harder to find BME, Aerospace and EE jobs in the USA, I would say, so co op helps. for those majors. Or earn a masters in BME, aero or EE.