My children were an English major and a Sociology major.
The English major – who was always going to be an English major, practically from the cradle – did not take math her senior year in high school. She had been in accelerated math for several years, hating it, and had taken calculus in 11th grade, though not an AP version of calculus. Failing to take math as a senior probably did hurt her in college admissions – her GC essentially refused to check the “most challenging curriculum” box for anyone who did not take AP Calculus BC – but that’s not why I am writing. Because she hadn’t taken that math in high school, she was required to take some math in college, and that was really difficult for her. Having taken a year off from math, and having taken a not-so-good course the year before that, made her very rusty, and contributed quite a bit to the hard time she had. It was really a struggle even to get a C in her first college math course.
What’s more, out in the world – and she has mainly worked for philanthropies trying to address issues of children in poverty and educational reform – she has learned that math and statistics are an absolute necessity, part of the common language of any job that involves analysis. She has had to work to bring her math skills up to snuff, both doing self-study and taking courses as a graduate student. Which of course means that one CAN skip 12th grade math and get away with it, but life would have been easier for her if she hadn’t done that.
As for the social science major . . . social sciences involve a lot of math. If your daughter has any interest in that whole chunk of the academic landscape, she is going to have to do meaningful additional math and statistics eventually.
Somewhere there is a long thread about whether one should take calculus. I argue that calculus is like the poetry of math. It’s part of being an educated person, but you take it because it’s beautiful. I’m an architect and I was required to take calc. It’s part of understanding structural engineering, but I don’t think a single structures course I took (four of them at least) required using calculus and in real life I either use a beam calculator or table, or call a structural engineer. All that said, for a kid who is shaky in math (and that freshman year D+ certainly suggests that), I think a statistics course is a great idea. Some high schools also offer separate courses that cover some of the fun topics that there isn’t usually much time for like probability and number theory.
These posts always make me so sad. Back in the day, it was no big deal not to go beyond Algebra I (which I took remedially as a full years course jr year with other very poor math students) and have only 3 years of math. That got me into excellent schools where I majored in history and never took a math class. No one thought I was a “bad” or ‘poorly prepared’ student because I didn’t have more math.I am a discalculate and truly cannot even do relatively basic math with any ease.
Today I am an appellate lawyer. My work involves sophisticated concepts of procedure and corporate law. I have been practicing for more than 30 years and have never needed math. Never. Ever.
To think that my life would have been so dramatically different…made to feel that my college choices were incredibly limited etc…saddens me to no end.
@maya54 I never took a math class after high school either, and I do a lot of finance and tax work. I use math all the time, but it’s math that I learned in my (very good) middle school, basic algebra. I never learned any statistics.
To some extent, though, the world today is very different. There is a lot more focus on math throughout the education system, from preschool through graduate programs. (Even in humanities, some knowledge about digital analysis of texts is probably necessary now.) Smart girls are not allowed to be poor math students the way they once were, at least not in good schools. The number of people whose lack of math ability (relative to other intellectual competencies) is innate, not cultural, is very limited. The 2010s version of you would not be taking remedial algebra in 11th grade. You might not love math, but you would do fine at it.
@JHS. I think you are wrong. My friend whose child has the same sort of learning disability that I do, had an IEP and was on a track like mine. His problem was that it limited his options in a way that did not happen for me. His 800 verbal 425 math scores required essays devoted to his issues. A huge focus on his disability where me, with the same issues, barely gave mine a second thought.
And I would not “do fine”. “Allowed”or not I cannot keep numbers straight. I will reverse even simple numbers and can’t “hold on” to them in my head. I have since adulthood paid my bills by rounding up to the next big whole number because it’s too easy for me to pay 426 instead of 462 ( it took me 3 tries to get that down right). My math teachers gave me a pass because they could see how hard I tried. I really understood almost nothing.
Luckily despite the insistence of many ( outside my place of employment ) that it was inescapable, I never have math come up in my job.
@maya54 LDs may be exceptions to the usual recommendations; perhaps someone else can describe how selective colleges handle admission decisions for students with discalculia. For high school students without such issues, the temptation to avoid the challenge of math could prove unfortunate when study plans change down the road as they so often do.
Coming from the opposite angle, happy was the day I realized that a brief was really just a proof. For me, math unlocked brief writing. Back in high school, if anyone had let me get away with a year or two of English rather than four, I would have taken that deal in a heartbeat (slacker!) and that would have been a mistake. I ended up in law school a decade later.
Ultimately, for kids applying to selective colleges, the race for the “most demanding” schedule will result in four years of math regardless of specific requirements.
It is a particularly American way of educating, which I am not sure serves all well. We expect everyone to be able to do everything. Other countries don’t. It is certainly possible to gain admission to Oxford or Cambridge, for example, never having taken an advanced math course if that isn’t your field of study. Your grades and scores in relevant courses are considered, not all courses. Just a different approach.
I have met kids with 800 Math and 425 Verbal SATs – mainly those who are still not proficient at English – but I don’t think I have ever encountered an 800 V, 425 M kid. (800 V, 650 M yes. Someone who ultimately got a social science PhD from an Ivy League university and who uses a lot of math professionally.)
I suspect that now, as in the distant past of our youth, an 800 V 425 M applicant would be very rare, and would be evaluated as a unique person by colleges that use holistic admissions practices, whether or not the applicant wrote supplemental essays about it. I would expect the recommenders and GC, if they were thoughtful at all, to address the issue as well. In those circumstances, I doubt the lack of math would be disqualifying at all. Being mediocre might be disqualifying, but that’s not mediocre, it’s extraordinary.
I’d just note that my daughter didn’t go past algebra 2 in high school, and took a single stats course in college, appropriate to her level. Her graduate program required a stats course, but my d’s undergraduate course qualified for a waiver. Now she is the financial manager for a company with a rather complex internal structure. Math, math, math every day. But it’s all 5th grade stuff – addition, subtraction,multiplication, division, fractions, percentages,etc. She needs to know how to work with Quickbooks and Excel. She needs a big picture understanding of accounting. Income, outflow, budgeting, taxes, etc. Absolutely none of that stuff requires higher math, except to the extent that a person needs to know basic algebraic notation in order to enter equations into Excel.
I am another one who has never used any math beyond basic algebra and geometry in real life. Math isn’t bad, but I don’t think there’s much value in taking a course where the knowledge and information isn’t going to be truly integrated – that is, if the student is going to be stressed out with homework and studying for exams, and then forget 90% of what was covered the day after the final exam — then that may not be the most valuable allocation of time.
It seems as if there are two groups of posters on this long and winding thread who think my D should take Calculus. One group believes Calculus is important to be a well-rounded, educated person, and believes she might need the skills gained in that class later in life. I know my D well enough (and know plenty of people in humanities and social sciences fields well enough) to be confident that she won’t need calculus in later life. Not taking Calc won’t keep her from becoming a fully functioning, well-rounded adult. I also suspect she will forget it almost immediately if she does take it (see Post #48). The second group of people is much more persuasive from my POV, those who believe skipping Calculus could hurt her chances for admission to certain colleges. I don’t like the idea that we have reached the point in the college admissions circus where not taking Calculus could hurt a kid with no interest in STEM, but that’s where we are. Maybe the tide will turn someday, just as some colleges are starting to admit that expecting kids to have 1,000 volunteer hours, 15 ECs, and a part-time job creates frazzled kids and frazzled parents–but that’s another thread.
It’s a common belief among CC posters than one needs to take the most advanced courses in all areas, but I wonder how much of that belief is held by admissions at highly selective colleges.
When I was in grade school, I disliked foreign language and didn’t plan to pursue it in college/career, so I took what I believed at the time to be the minimum required by the colleges I planned to apply to. Most accelerated foreign language kids at my HS completed Spanish 6 by senior year of HS. I was not in the accelerated group and stopped the sequence after Spanish 3 (or maybe Spanish 4, don’t recall). I fulfilled my minimum HS years language requirements with a Latin class that I found more pleasant.
However, I was truly passionate about math and science, and planned to pursue a related career. When I was in HS, I treated my calculator the way most HS kids treat their cell phone. I took much higher levels of classes in math and science than I did foreign language, going well beyond the highest level classes offered at my HS; was involved in math competitions between other HSs; etc. I was admitted to Stanford, MIT, and Ivies based on far more impressive accomplishments in the fields that I was more passionate about and pursued in college, rather than being dismissed from consideration because I took weaker/fewer language classes, a field I did not take any classes in during college…
Regarding the OP, all college websites I am aware of list their math and science admission requirements, and often separate required vs recommended. I’m not aware of any colleges on the list that require 4 years math for non-engineering students, but at least UCLA recommends it. Several colleges on the list have a history of less holistic decisions that can be predicted well with stats, making GPA in core classes especially important.
Pay attention to colleges’ graduation requirements to ensure that she is prepared to complete them without needing additional (possibly remedial) math courses in college.
For example, University of Wisconsin has a two part quantitative reasoning requirement described at http://guide.wisc.edu/undergraduate/#requirementsforundergraduatestudytext . The A part can be fulfilled by placement testing or high enough AP calculus* score or a college course. The B part requires a college course. Based on catalog searches, it looks like many courses other than math can satisfy the B part (e.g. introductory microeconomics, elementary logic (philosophy), various statistics courses including some for social studies majors, some political science courses).
Skipping that year of math in hs would mean needing to earn a remedial math credit at Miami University: http://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/application/high-school-curriculum/index.html
High School (State-Accredited) Diploma or GED
Applicants are expected to have completed the curriculum below. Although most students admitted to Miami University have gone above and beyond these minimal standards, you will not be denied admission to Miami if you are otherwise qualified. Instead, you will be required to complete the following standards once you enroll:
However, the student in question will complete precalculus in 11th grade. Perhaps the OP should ask Miami directly about whether an additional course will be needed in this situation.
I do sympathize with OP. One of my kids hated math as well but had to take it all 4 years. Keep in mind that recommended courses may really be required in practice for middle class applicants. Most applicants will have taken math each year and I believe not doing so will make her less competitive these days. There is some flexibility in foreign language with 4 years sometimes sufficient but I haven’t seen any for math or English.
I’ve been around CC a long time and haven’t seen any evidence that’s true. Some colleges are very specific about their minimum admission requirements, but most are somewhat flexible and with holistic admission standards, I think all view the application in context of the student’s profile. It would probably be disastrous for a prospective engineering major to forego calculus… but for the prospective creative writing major? Well, that kid’s essay had better be close to amazing, but math… not so much.
But bottom line - there are plenty of colleges to choose from, including many that won’t care about the math. So maybe it’s just a matter of revising the college list to match the applicant’s credentials.
Reaches which are very competitive OOS public schools like UCLA and Michigan, which you mentioned, are even more difficult as out of state slots can be limited, at least in California’s case.
As I tried to indicate in my earlier post, the issue may not even be with colleges. Apart from possibly Caltech, I don’t think any college actually requires applicants to have taken calculus. But you can run into a sub rosa requirement at the high school level.
The standard high school GC report that is part of most college applications requires the school to select from a menu of choices to describe a student’s curriculum:
Conventional wisdom is that for a normal, unhooked applicant, at a highly selective college, any applicant without the “most demanding” box checked is at a significant disadvantage. My kids’ school – or at least their GC – had an unwritten but rigid policy that no kid who had not taken AP Calculus BC could qualify for “most demanding” course selection. (In fairness, the unwritten policy probably required APUSH, too, plus 4-5 additional APs that could vary from kid to kid.) As a result, every ambitious, competitive kid tool AP Calculus BC, even those who were completely humanities-focused, and without regard to what colleges required.
Foreign language recommendations, by the way, are not a valid point of comparison, because that recommendation has unique issues. Notwithstanding that I am a huge fan of foreign language study – at the time I applied to college, I had taken coursework in five languages, and self-studied a sixth for a while – and I agree completely with the philosophy of the recommendation, in years of observing college admissions I have concluded that (a) no college really enforces its foreign language study recommendation (except maybe for minimum requirements like the UCs have), and (b) they are right not to enforce those recommendations.
First, the quality of foreign language courses available at most high schools – really, all but a tiny percentage of them – is not high enough for colleges to require that all applicants take four or even three years of it. It’s ridiculous to require smart kids to take terrible courses with little or no valid content, repeatedly.
Second, there’s something of a tipping-point acceptance problem. Here on CC, you see it all the time: some STEM-oriented kid asking why he or she should have to drop this or that course that really excites them to take another year of vocabulary and grammar memorization and practicing inane conversation. They don’t get it, and if the colleges started taking their recommendations seriously it would disqualify a huge number of kids who really shouldn’t be disqualified.
Third, a lot of kids who are immigrants themselves or children of immigrants are bi-, tri-, or more-lingual without taking high school courses. They don’t need to take courses to have the intellectual and developmental benefits of learning and using a second language.
@calmdownkids : when people say “math”, they don’t necessarily mean “calculus”. For a non-STEM student, it’ll be much more important that your daughter have AP Lit (Lang if not taken Jr year), AP Foreign Language, AP History/Social Science (perhaps doubling up if possible). Since she has bio, chem, and physics, she’s free to take something else than a science, or any sort of science (forensics, APES, AP CS Principles, marine biology…) If she has a precise major in mind, adding an extra class related to that area would reinforce her profile. Junior APs would hopefully include APUSH and AP Lang.
As for math, yes she needs to take a quantitative class, but that class can be discrete math or statistics since she’s completed the equivalent of 4 units of math (Algebra1+2, Geometry, Trig/precalc).
Make sure your daughter look into LACs, as those offer smaller, interactive, writing-intensive classes that are essential for Humanities/Social Science majors. Women’s college have very active alumna networks and many LACs have very good career centers for their Humanities/Social Science majors (I’m thinking of NESCAC, Dickinson, Denison, Davidson…)