$41,150 for nursery school, before pre-K, to get your kid into Ivy

Parents Forum
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<p>Like Bayside, Queens or Riverdale, Bronx. </p>

<p>However, if one’s vantagepoint/experience is in such neighborhoods, it’s not likely to be very representative of many more parts of NYC where there’s much wider range of diversity not only in race/ethnic terms, but also SES status. </p>

<p>To use an analogy, it would be like saying my experience living in NYC could be universalized to that of the entire NY state. An apparent absurdity considering how different NYC is from other downstate areas like Long Island’s Nassau or Suffolk Counties, or Westchester, not to say upstate NY</p>

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<p>None of this is relevant to the conversation. You stated, cobrat, that it’s either g&t or remedial. That is still not true, and it is still not true that the high school application process is somehow unfair. The high school application process is fair, and having 12 options across the five boroughs, along with a possible appeal if necessary, means that all students who apply according to the criteria will make a match. Students I. Non G&T classes are not doomed to remediation or failure. And I ask you, again, what experience do you have more recent than 25 years ago? Mine is still current and I have had children in schools in two boroughs with carefully considered acceptances in three. What about you? </p>

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<p>cobrat, I live in a nice neighborhood, but my architectural work includes work trying to get recent immigrants to understand why they can’t stuff their houses with illegal extra bedrooms and additions to mansions. Most of us are able to see past our little neighborhoods. And in my area the distance between million dollar houses and ones that are in iffy neighborhoods can be less than a mile. I know a fair amount about neighboring schools systems because I have friends whose kids were in them. </p>

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<p>As always, mathmom makes excellent points!
But what cobrat seems to misunderstand is that my three kids were actual students in the school system of which I am speaking. Recently. One of them currently teaches the grades we are discussing in that school system in a borough in which we don’t live. His information may have been the gospel truth 25 years ago. But things have changed enormously in the intervening decades. And thank God they have because I think that in a perverse way, the economic crisis has actually helped the NYC public school system to attract absolutely stellar teachers. The credentials held by some of the teachers who taught my son and, particularly my daughter, were stunning and the impact they had on my kids has been a great blessing. And both of my kids attended high-poverty schools on the North Shore with problems that would rival those in any part of the city. For someone who visited a community of 500,000 people once or twice decades ago to think that he has anything worthwhile to say is just silly.Certainly the public school system has enormous problems, but it is still not true that the only options are G&T or remedial, that’s even more silly. And many of the problems start in the home, long before the kids are even in the system. The high school process is sadistic, miserable and hideous, but it is fair to all applicants who follow the rules, and I can’t think of a better way of doing it that would give so many people so many options. Wealthy people pay enormous amounts of money for their kids’ education for a lot of reasons, but it boils down to the fact that they do because they can. It’s not that surprising. If you have a lot of money, you buy more expensive shoes, more expensive cars, move expensive houses, so of course you would pay for more expensive schools. Part of it is what a particular family is exposed to, what is common in their community or social group, and part of it is certainly to avoid the problems of the diversity of public schools. But it’s their money, so who cares.</p>

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<p>So it’s ok for you to cite friends for your knowledge, but not me. Seems ZM and company here are showing a bit of bias here.</p>

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<p>According to former middle/HS teachers I had who are still teaching along with HS classmates who are current teachers in the NYC public school system, yes things have changed. </p>

<p>Consensus is the quality of K-8 on average has actually gotten worse though this has been hidden well because there are some neighborhood elementary and middle schools…often in better off areas like your area of SI or Bayside, Queens. </p>

<p>In many online and IRL conversations with concerned SHS alums on our alum website and at alum get togethers…including parents of current K-8 and high school students attending schools ranging from a good area public HS to one of the SHS, one common question which is asked: </p>

<p>“Why is it that students who are shut out of G & T programs need to start prepping as early as 3rd grade just to have a chance on the SHS exam when the content of the exam itself hasn’t changed much*?” </p>

<p>This question references the fact back when we were in school, there weren’t G & T programs which started siphoning off and effectively locking in/out students starting in early elementary school. Back then, every local junior high had SP homerooms…the old G & T equivalent and one wasn’t placed until 6-7th grade. </p>

<p>Moreover, one didn’t necessarily need to be in an SP homeroom in junior high to have a chance on the SHS exam back then if one prepped for around a few months to a year at most. Consensus from every informed parent with kids in the current K-8/12 public schools…especially SHS alums is if one’s shut out of G & T programs, a few months to a year is no longer enough time to prep for such students unless they had prior exposure to topics like algebra, geometry, and/or English language from prior education abroad or are students who are exceedingly quick studies. </p>

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<li>The math portion of the current SHS exam covers the exact same topics in the same depth as the one I took 20+ years ago based on publicly available sources…including sample questions from the DOE site.<br></li>
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<p>ZM, </p>

<p>While what you’re saying is accurate for your part of Staten Island and non-SI schools your children attended/taught, your experience/account is actually very atypical of what I’ve experienced myself and heard from most parents of current NYC public school students and moreso…nearly every current teacher I know including some who are still teaching after 30+ years or recently retired within the last year or so. </p>

<p>Also, while I have no doubt your D is a dedicated conscientious teacher in the NYC public school system along with current teachers I’ve known…including decades-long veterans, the fact is there’s not enough teachers* like them in the system. Especially in areas which are underserved and/or have large recent immigrant populations. </p>

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<li>People who really know how hard K-8/12 teaching understand why it is laughable when professionals from other professions…even biglaw or i-banking say “What’s so hard about teaching?”</li>
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<p>0k, I tried to stay out of this,but…I too live in NYC.</p>

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<p>The increase in the amount of prepping done for the SHS tests has NADA to do with the quality of the schools. There has been just as much of an increase in prepping for private elementary schools and public G&T programs and that’s not due to any decline in the quality of nursery schools. Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, VERY few students prepped for the SAT. Now, lots–perhaps the majority–of test-takers do. It’s not because the quality of high schools has declined.</p>

<p>If you want to go to one of the top high schools, you prep because everyone else preps and you are competing against them for a spot. What you and your friends are missing is that the score you need to get into one of the top 3 science high schools has increased dramatically since when you applied. Many of your friends–maybe even you–would not get into them with the same scores you had 25 years ago, just like I probably wouldn’t get into my college alma mater with the same SAT I and II scores (now subject tests) I had then. But you know what? It’s extremely unlikely that I would have the same scores now as I had then because today I would have put in time prepping for those tests. ((I literally did not know a single person who did more than read through the sample questions in the test booklet.) And if you were in 8th grade now, cobrat, you WOULD prep for the test because most of your competition would be doing so.</p>

<p>And, for the record, my local junior high has NEVER had SP homerooms. It didn’t back when you were in junior high, so it’s simply untrue that “every local junior high had SP homerooms.” And, there WERE G&T programs back then which started in kindergarten. PS 6 on the Upper East Side most definitely had one. While you are too old for the Anderson Program, it was begun in 1987–not all that recently.</p>

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<p>While cutoff scores have increased, it isn’t as dramatic as you’re implying. For instance, the cutoff scores for 2013 are:</p>

<p>Stuyvesant 562
Bronx Science 513
Brooklyn Latin 471
Brooklyn Technical 483
HSMSE @ CCNY 498
HSAS @ Lehman 501
Queens Science @ York College 500
Staten Island Tech 503</p>

<p>Source: <a href=“http://www.theschoolboards.com/showthread.php/3338-Specialized-High-School-SHSAT-Cutoff-Scores-for-2013”>http://www.theschoolboards.com/showthread.php/3338-Specialized-High-School-SHSAT-Cutoff-Scores-for-2013&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>In Stuy’s case, the 2013 cutoff is less than a 10 point difference compared to when I took the exam 20+ years ago. The difference in BxScience’s cutoff is just a bit over 10 points. </p>

<p>The only major score increase compared to when I took the test is Brooklyn Tech where the difference is nearly 60 points. The cutoff for Brooklyn Tech was in the 420s range back when I took the exam. </p>

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<p>I didn’t say there was no prep back when I attended. The major difference was it was mainly for the purposes of familiarization with the format and pacing of the exam and time taken ranged from a few months to a year before the exam. Not to the point prepping starts as early as 3rd grade because non G & T tracks won’t start teaching the topics covered on the SHS exam until 8th grade when it’s too late. </p>

<p>Incidentally, that also brings up another point. Any prepping, then and now should be completed before the fall of 8th grade. </p>

<p>If one hasn’t completed prep or worse, started in 8th grade and needs it, they’re out of luck considering the exam was given in early fall of 8th grade for 9th grade entry. </p>

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<p>Cobrat, there was prep when I was in school and I am about 6 years older than you are and prep always needed to be completed before the test was taken, it’s ironic how that horse comes before the cart, isn’t it? Oh wait . . … And you are STILL wrong about non-G&T “tracks.” The honors programs teach exactly the same material in the same time as the “G&T” classes. </p>

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Cobrat, I have politely and repeatedly explained to you that your perception of “my area of Staten Island” is just completely wrong. I live near the ferry. On the North Shore. In a diverse neighborhood. With pockets of poverty and about three blocks from the projects. Yet you continue to peddle misinformation despite being corrected repeatedly for the purpose of nullifying the voice of someone who challenges your fantasies. You are wrong about a lot, but as I said earlier, it takes a real pair to tell someone about details of their own community that you visited once 25 years ago. And I still don’t believe you ever have these conversations with people. </p>

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Nowadays, many (if not most) NYC public high schools offer various prep programs for the SAT, some in partnership with prep companies, some personal on-site, and free of charge.</p>

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<p>“In many online and IRL conversations with concerned SHS alums on our alum website and at alum get togethers…including parents of current K-8 and high school students attending schools ranging from a good area public HS to one of the SHS, one common question which is asked:”</p>

<p>This is why you don’t have credibility, cobrat. Your experience is 25 years old, zoosermom’s is current and ongoing, and yet you claim that you’ve had all these “conversations” with friends and therefore you know more. </p>

<p>There isn’t a topic on CC for which you don’t claim that you’ve allegedly discussed it extensively with other people. No one believes it anymore - if they ever did. Please stop pretending every single topic is something you have intimate knowledge of through these supposed “discussions.”</p>

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<p>I know, cobrat, don’t confuse you with facts. It’s only the kids who aren’t lucky enough to get into G&T programs who begin prepping for the exam early. Kids only prep because they haven’t covered the material on the test in their classes. (Uh, huh, sure…) </p>

<p>I think 10 points IS a substantial change. And as you’ve noted, Brooklyn Tech has gone up a lot–even though it’s obvious some students are choosing options that didn’t exist when you entered 9th grade over it. </p>

<p>I’m not sure the source you are using is accurate, but why not use the current scores. i.e., 2014?</p>

<p>Stuy actually declined by 3 points, but the others went up in ONE year…</p>

<p>Bx S Up 4
Brooklyn Latin --up 9
Brooklyn Tech --up 3
CCNY up 14
Lehman up 5
York unknown
Staten Island Tech -up 3. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.theschoolboards.com/showthread.php/3836-Specialized-High-School-SHSAT-Cutoff-Scores-for-2014”>http://www.theschoolboards.com/showthread.php/3836-Specialized-High-School-SHSAT-Cutoff-Scores-for-2014&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>That’s in ONE year, cobrat. And you know what’s going to happen? Kids are going to spend even more time prepping for the test and that includes the kids in G&T middle school programs. And it’s not because the quality of the schools declined; it’s because the scores you need have increased. </p>

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<p>My kid just graduated from an SHSAT school after attending elementary and middle school in Chinatown. We know a ton of Asian kids from all her schools (and she’s Asian too!) and trust me, most of them didn’t start prepping for the SHSAT in 3rd grade.</p>

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<p>Cobrat–
Your facts about tracking the gifted in NYC in the past are wrong. I was raised in Brooklyn and attended elementary school in the 60’s–my brother in the 70’s. I know for a fact that there were gifted programs back then that tracked the gifted from 1st grade and on. As a matter of fact, the kids in the “IGC” program in my elementary school were automatically tracked into the SP program in 7th grade. The only thing we needed to decide was whether we would take the 2 year or 3 year SP program.</p>

<p>And 20 years ago there were pre-k gifted programs that required IQ tests as their qualification. We moved to Long Island instead, but I got my 3 year old tested with all the rest of the Brooklyn moms. </p>

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<p>Ok…we had three friends who shared an apartment in NYC. We visited often. There were plenty of NYC kids attending the public schools who lived in that building. I know. I saw them when I visited. I also frequently saw school groups at the museums in NYC when visiting a relative who lived there. We talked a lot about the schools in NYC. Well…maybe not a lot, but a little. And I saw school buses.</p>

<p>Does that make me an expert on the NYC public schools? </p>

<p>Carry on!</p>

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<p>I don’t know thumper. It might count if you cited cousins. I think there needs to be a ruling on friends to cousins ratio.</p>

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<p>No cousins…but does an aunt, two nephews, and an BIL and SIL count? And of course, my husband’s many coworkers…and the coworkers of their friends and acquaintances? :)</p>

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<p>I’m going to have to say that counts.</p>

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<p>Several pages ago, I mentioned that I didn’t think this was a good place to argue about arcane aspects of the NYC public school system. It’s like the blind men describing the elephant and I don’t think it has much to do with private schools that cost $41,150 for nursery school, before pre-K.</p>

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<p>Here’s my theory about cobrat. He spends time on other online forums, like ones for Stuy alums. He takes what these people say, turns them into friends and cousins, and quotes them here. </p>

<p>Chances are, he uses what we say here on CC as evidence on those other online boards – we’re his friends and cousins, too. </p>

<p>Cobrat, I get really annoyed when you use your experience from HS and college and think it applies to today. That just isn’t the case anymore. </p>

<p>But I do think some of what cobrat says here is valid. The percentage of blacks and Hispanics at NYC specialized schools is abysmally low, especially compared to the percentage of blacks and Hispanics in the school system. Why is that? I think he is right about the amount of tutoring going on in certain communities. And I think the way G&T programs are handled contributes to the imbalance. </p>

<p>The NYTimes story was written to see whether paying all this money for private schools to get your kid into HYP results in a higher chance of acceptance into elite schools. I think the answer was yes, since a really high percentage of private school kids get into elite schools. If you are a multi billionaire, and you have a 3-year-old who you want at an elite college, getting them into Horace Mann for preschool seems like a good financial investment. </p>

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<p>If you are a multi billionaire, one would think you would be high on college development radar screens. There aren’t too many multi Billionaire families out there. One would think college admissions would not be a huge problem for this population regardless of where they attend preschool.</p>