<p>For a “multi billionaire” wanting his 3 year old to attend an elite college, there is a far easier path at his/her disposal than getting that child into Horace Mann. And certainly much easier on the child as well.</p>
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<p>One family at DS’s private HS donated a bldg to an Ivy. That got the kid off the WL.</p>
<p>I have many strong opinions about inequality, inefficiency and arbitrariness in the NYC public school system. But that doesn’t really relate to the strategies of the super-wealthy.</p>
<p>Geez. OK, a multi millionaire. Or someone rich. </p>
<p>“One family at DS’s private HS donated a bldg to an Ivy. That got the kid off the WL”</p>
<p>My sister’s friend not only has buildings named for them at several boarding schools and colleges - they have a school at a university named for them in NYC. Their son, when they were looking at boarding schools, refused to look at any that had their name on a building. That was his only criteria. I don’t know about when he went he was looking at universities, but, in all likelihood he could get into any school he wanted even if there was no building on campus with their name on it. . </p>
<p>In a way this discussion about NYC is fascinating. Lots of opinions and lots of real experiences. </p>
<p>A question that comes to mind is about a family of two 30 years old with an income of 300,000 and jobs in Manhattan should do in terms of living arrangements if they expect to have two kids in the next 5 years? Assume pretty sizeable savings and no debt. </p>
<p>Look at the suburbs or try to stay closer? Private of public schools? It would be nice to ask what you’d do if you could do it again, but it seems that things were different two decades ago. </p>
<p>On a personal note, I think that the answer is easier in places such as Texas or in most of the states outside the two coasts. I am not sure I’d know the answer on the Left Coast. </p>
<p>And, speaking about cousins, it is fascinating to see how my European cousins worry about such issues. The answer is they do not in the least. They know the limitations of their resources and know that the system will work for them. And it does. The most interesting one is the case of the expat one who works for a large company abroad. All of his expenses are paid and he assumes that it will get only better. </p>
<p>I would just note that a rich family might want their kid to go the “best” preschool for reasons independent from whether it increases the chances of getting into Harvard.</p>
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<p>While my own experience is 20+ years old, my information is coming from teachers…both 20-30+ year veterans I’ve had and friends who CURRENTLY TEACH in the NYC public school system and alums/neighbors who are parents to CURRENT STUDENTS in the NYC public school system. </p>
<p>The ones in high school include students I’ve guided within the last decade in preparing for the SHS exam if that was the route they took or to advise them away if their academic interests/personalities were such the old 3 SHS wouldn’t serve their needs well. Last one is going into his junior year at one of the old 3. Granted, they were mostly like applicants when I applied who only needed some familiarization with the exam format/pacing and little else. </p>
<p>I am also careful enough to distinguish experiences of teachers teaching in underserved neighborhood schools versus those teaching at public magnets like the SHS, comparable schools like Midwood HS, or schools in higher SES areas like Bayside. </p>
<p>Unlike some folks on this thread with an extreme few notable exceptions, I am well-aware that there are substantial differences between the schools and tracks depending on the school/area one happens to be in. </p>
<p>This very issue is one key reason why there is such a frenzy among wealthy and upper-middle class parents in getting their children into highly competitive pre-K programs costing $41k/year or moving out to the wealthy/upper-middle class suburbs. </p>
<p>They’re worried about whether their kids will be set up in a good position to attend a good/great junior high/high school and because of the current crazed NYC public HS application process, would be much more inclined to opt out by sending their kids to private schools or moving to well-off suburban areas with academically strong public schools their kids would be able to attend by mere virtue of living there. </p>
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<p>10 points isn’t a substantial change. A 10 point difference is one of around a couple of questions on the exam. Now a 30-60 or more points is a substantial difference. </p>
<p>True Hunt, but people’s perception of “best” is not alway accurate. Even the “best” can be fraught with problems. At the risk of getting this thread shut down, suffice it to say that a school previously mentioned has had more than its fair share.</p>
<p>Xiggi, in the past, many families moved to the suburbs once their second child hit school age. But I think the trend recently is for more upper middle class (whatever that means! See the other thread!) to figure out a way to stay. NYers tolerate much smaller and less convenient living space. They like the diversity, they like being able to walk almost everywhere, they like the sense of community which is there when families live in close quarters. As someone with an income pretty far below the median, it’s been a great place to raise my kid (off to college soon!). My kid has always been in school and activities with kids that have more than us and kids that have less. A lot more and a lot less!</p>
<p>Regarding getting into Harvard, I wonder if this is a more recent affair. Inasmuch as I understand the mystique associated with the Ivy League, my hunch is that the past generations and the parents who participate here did not feel the same pressure than has been seen in the past decade, Has this pressure to “get” into started with large influxes of foreigners obsessed social and economical climbing and an increased wealth or disposable incomes in large swaths of the population? And when did it really start? USNews 1983? </p>
<p>For some reasons, I draw an analogy to the most selective country clubs. We hear about them, find them beautiful and well-kept, look at the well-dressed and well-heeled members, but realize that no matter how we tried, we will never truly fit in and not reap the purported advantages of … connections. And then realize that the grass at the public course or “lesser” private club is just as green! </p>
<p>Thanks, OldMom! I look at this through the lenses of someone living (very well) in San Francisco. I see the advantages of walking or biking to most everywhere. But I am also looking at the incongruity of having a family with children in such an environment. I also understand that a city with fewer than 1,000,000 people might not compare with the size and diversity of a city such as New York. </p>
<p>I also see how friends and family start a different life in the US or abroad, and seriously wonder about the long-term attraction of living in a city that forces one to accept expensive and subpar housing, poor choices in school, high taxes, and a diversity that includes less than wholesome “neighbors.” Is the ultimate outcome really worth all the efforts and sacrifices? </p>
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<p>I don’t think it is new - perhaps with the space race, and changing demographics in US but probably by late 60s even, and partly enabled by the spread of standardized testing (for good and bad).</p>
<p>The pressure to go to New England elite colleges was strong where I grew up on the east coast (just before the US News rankings mentioned above), and also among the High Schools my cousins went to it was expected to be the goal of the smartest kids. Nothing new there. I chose to apply to top southern schools (only) which was unique among those I knew (normal was to apply to North East elite colleges). I don’t know how much harder some of these schools are to get into now than in 1982 or 1981 etc but certainly Vanderbilt has gotten insanely more difficult to get into compared to back then, but most of the current most difficult to get into colleges were pretty competitive in the 80s as well - and the Ivy League schools were not a lock for National Merit Scholars with high grades even in the 80s (although obviously harder to get into now). And remember, many of the applicants who took the pre-recentering SAT from that era consider the tests from that era more rigorous. I do think that the whole academic mindset, academic competitions, number of AP classes, competitiveness back then was SO much higher (for good and bad) among the East Coast prep schools and magnet schools - and that presumably has balanced out more. Hard to imagine a more competitive area than Southwest Houston and NW Austin these days (winning national math, science, quiz bowl competitions etc.). That would have been shocking in the 80s where high schools like mine competed against students from the even more uber-competitive schools like Bronx High School of Science - but all in a narrow area of the East Coast from DC to Connecticut.</p>
<p>D1 is already thinking about where she should live when she has kids and she is 25. Her hours have gotten better, able to leave by 7-8 most nights, and she thinks in 3-5 years her hours could even be better. But she is not keen about commuting 3+ hours a day. She is putting all of her bonus away, and most of that will go toward her first apartment (2+ bedroom). She feels obligated in putting her kids in private school because she felt she benefited greatly from her education. As a matter of fact, she already had that discussion with her boyfriend (most likely her future husband).</p>
<p>I think I would still send my kids to private school, but I am not sure if I would have moved out of NYC. Our expenses didn’t go down by moving out - same private school costs, cars, house maintenance, commute to NYC. Not to mention the fact the apartment we sold for 475K 20 years ago is now worth 2 mill+, the house we bought out in the suburb only doubled in price.</p>
<p>The 30 something’s I know who live in the city (not Manhattan but Queens and Bklyn) seem to stay until they decide to have a second child. These are all two income professionals, but between the cost of a bigger apartment and day care for two kids they would be broke. </p>
<p>One such couple I know just bought a town home in Fairfield County, Ct. One of their criteria before moving was that one of them needed to get a job in Ct. It can be very difficult if both parents are doing a commute into and out of Manhattan. </p>
<p>My niece and her H will be needing to make a decision on what to do in a year or so. They just had kid#1 so are OK for now in a one bedroom in Bklyn but they definitely can’t be in that apt with a second kid. AS it is kid #1 has to sleeps in an wee alcove. </p>
<p>Not everyone has a priority to live in luxurious digs, xiggi. And your less than wholesome neighbor is my friend. I think it’s really healty for kids to live shoulder-to-shoulder with a great variety of people, and good for their parents too. NYC has an extremely low crime rate, many fewer gun crimes especially. It’s a trade-off. We did very well in the nightmare that is NYC school choice and I have no regrets. Plus real estate taxes are not very high for most categories. It’s another complicated, arcane system laden with historical artifacts that is not controlled by the city but by the state legislature, but by and large real estate taxes are not nearly as high as they are in the burbs surrounding NYC where they are extraordinarily high.</p>
<p>Even when I was in a dodgy neighborhood attending Columbia I always felt my immediate neighbors were reasonably wholesome. I did get the I-need-to-live-in-NYC out of my system though by attending Columbia at the height of the crack epidemic. When we moved back to the area with a six month old we didn’t consider the city for very long at all. DH’s work, while in NYC is a shorter commute from where we live than it would be if we were in Manhattan. We have plenty of diversity in our town and our neighborhood, but I like having my own yard (not a very big one!) </p>
<p>I had a number of friends who moved out here as soon as kids were school aged, a number of others who moved when they got to middle school, some moved back to the city as soon as the youngest finished high school, but most ended up making ties out here.</p>
<p>Even in the suburbs if you have a precocious kid you will spend many days wondering if it wouldn’t just be easier to homeschool.</p>
<p>Fwiw, I used quotation marks around “neighbors” as I did not exactly meant to describe people who pay rent or morgages! </p>
<p>I also should add that despite the concern for the future, I really have no preconceived opinion about the best path. I do not think that I will be able to reproduce the education my parents were able to offer me, but the times and the environment might have changed. And, perhaps, the current generation of parents here … thought the same about the difficulty of making choices. </p>
<p>I am happy that I have quite a bit of time ahead of me to listen and learn from the experience of the elders. Unless this forum embarks on a campaign that brings more format changes, chances are that I will find plenty of solid advice. </p>
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But several posters have tried to relay that they do not believe you are having any current conversations about this specific topic with any of these people. </p>
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<p>Some of that has also been driven by a trend of reducing legacy advantage for admission starting from the mid-'60s onward unless one is a multi-millionaire or greater who can afford donate hundreds of thousands/year and/or a building to a given private Ivy/elite college. </p>
<p>Add a more widespread perception that college is something “everyone does”…especially among middle classes and up and there’s a greater pressure to attend more elite/respectable college among upper/upper-middle class and academically above average/gifted students to differentiate themselves from all the 18-21+ folks going to college. </p>