<p>Half</a> of primary-care doctors in survey would leave medicine - CNN.com</p>
<p>A member of my family is an OB/GYN and feels the same way. Medical mal insurance rates are ridiculous and the red-tape from thirty-party payer insurance companies is stifling. So many he knows are ready to retire early and get out.</p>
<p>Do you think the stats are better in any other relatively high paying profession? I find it telling that so many of my friends try hard to discourage their own kids from becoming lawyers. They don't like what they do, but the income is really hard to replace.</p>
<p>Well, my H did quit. yeah, the income is hard to replace. So we didn't. He happily works as a teacher for little more than a third what he made as a pediatrician (not high-paying by MD standards, as he was salaried to work in an inner city clinic, but of course high-paying to most people.)</p>
<p>Our secret was to always live severely under the available income. We didn't need it, and for the most part, we don't miss it. And he doesn't miss the stress and ridiculous hours. And i like having a happier H.</p>
<p>The huge mistake that so many lawyers make (and I assume doctors, too) is that they marry another lawyer (or doctor) and have a very large double income and no kids. So they buy a very expensive house based on that large double income, and the bondage has begun. Neither can quit. Neither can work less (or not at all) to stay home with the kids. Sure, a family can downsize their house, but it almost never happens. (BTW, I'm still living in the house I bought in 1986 as a first year associate. My income has increased almost tenfold, but I'm still in the same house.)</p>
<p>Yes, we did the same thing Missypie. The problem is that right now downsizing the house is next to impossible in this market. Not a wise decision for most. The thing is, when you get that extra income, the house is a natural place to put it. We LIVE in our house so much. We have a big family and our home has been a safe haven for all kinds of problems. That so many of us, so different could find sanctuary and peace is worth a lot since we USE our house more than anything else we own. Still, even before the market froze and plummeted, I regretted putting as much into the house purchase as we did. It is something that you cannot pull out of immediately. In that way, we are worse off than those who bought a modest home and blew all their money on truly frivolous things. They can stop that spending easier than we can stop our house related payments. It's an inflexible choice to make. But it can touch on so many quality of live issues.</p>
<p>I don't think doctors are any more immune to job fatigue and being fed up than any one else. What is heartening is that most of them are tired of the bureaucracy that their work now requires. Most of them want to just doctor, not be an accountant, businessman, lawyer, etc. This is what seems to cause the most upset in the medical field. Many feel that their ability to give their best care has been compromised by those who know nothing about medicine. This is an issue that I think we need to address if we are going to get the best medical from our doctors and the best minds to be our doctors.</p>
<p>That is so true, MP, and the ones we know never feel like they have enough. When my H was still a resident, and I was working very part time as an adjunct, a senior physician, married to a researcher, invited us to a "get-together" at their enormous house. She being H's boss, we really had to go. turned out, it was an *Amway *shpiel :(. totally boring, had to schlep the kids there, too, who coudln't stand what they called "doctor kids"--which didn't necessarily means kids of doctors (after all, they were too, but what they meant was rich, overprivileged spoiled kids with horrid social skills.)</p>
<p>So, long drive, boring evening, and an unending litany of whining from other doctor couples about how they didn't make enough, yadda yadda yadda.</p>
<p>it was eye-opening to us, and we vowed never to get like that.</p>
<p>CPt--totally agree with your last paragraph. I will boast and say (and anyone would readily agree who knows him) that H was a fantastic doc, the kind of pediatrician everyone wants. But the stress and fatigue of getting coverage for his patients, along with the social failures which plagued them, wore him down.</p>
<p>Not that these are missing in education, but it's a bit more tempered.</p>
<p>I have a BIL who is an echocardiologist. When he finished all those years of school he had a choice. Teach or practice. </p>
<p>Yep, he chose teaching at the med school in San Antonio rather than take an offer to join a very lucrative and pressure-packed (read that pagers, 24 hour call etc) practice in the Dallas area. </p>
<p>They live within their means, co-parent (he married an elementary school teacher) and have personal interests and things they do as a couple and "family" things.</p>
<p>I am a second career lawyer who got licensed in 1985 at age 35. After 2 years in a growing firm and 5 years in a small group practice, I went solo. Over the years, I have been able to shape my practice to what I like to do. </p>
<p>I'd estimate that well over 50% of the attorneys I know who went straight through HS, college and law school HATE what they do at age 50.</p>
<p>Personally, I still love what I do. I have the philosophy that to be truly "rich" is NOT to have enough money to possess everything you can dream of, but rather to NEVER have to do anything that you really don't want to do. </p>
<p>To me, the "bondage" to things that missypie mentions is the curse of many professionals. The idea on not having the "stuff" sentences many to careers and marriages that are hollow and soul draining. Hence the high incidence of substance abuse (and suicide) in docs and attys.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What is heartening is that most of them are tired of the bureaucracy that their work now requires. Most of them want to just doctor, not be an accountant, businessman, lawyer, etc. This is what seems to cause the most upset in the medical field. Many feel that their ability to give their best care has been compromised by those who know nothing about medicine. This is an issue that I think we need to address if we are going to get the best medical from our doctors and the best minds to be our doctors.
[/quote]
Yep, yep , yep! Well said. </p>
<p>
[quote]
truly "rich" is NOT to have enough money to possess everything you can dream of, but rather to NEVER have to do anything that you really don't want to do. To me, the "bondage" to things that missypie mentions is the curse of many professionals.
[/quote]
True too. If people manage their finances appropriately, it doesnt matter what their profession is. There is, however, a high burnout rate amongst many demanding, time-draining professions (MD, DDS, JD, CPA, etc)</p>
<p>I have a question, Garland. Putting all political feelings and economic and tax models aside, would your husband have prefered working in a single payor (government run) medical system? That would have eliminated the getting paid part, but would the new layer of paperwork and regulations be just as bad?</p>
<p>missiepie-
If it is ok to jump in to answer your question, there are parallels to the "single payor" system already here-- Drs who work fulltime for HMO's and Drs who work in the VA system are sort of in this situation (MDs in academic environments who teach and do clinic work) are in a somewhat similar situation, though there are also many differences.) The docs I know in these environments give mixed reports (especially the HMO employees). Pressure to see x number of pts an hour, lots of oversight, frustration with parts of the system like the scheduling, limited budget for desired equipment, etc) that make them pull their hair out at times.</p>
<p>The doctors I know who are upset are in that state because they feel they cannot provide the best care to their patients with all the laws, rules, limiting them. It is frustrating when an insurance plan will only pay for a med or procedure after trying something cheaper first when you know that a more expensive route is the best answer. If you go against the grain, you can get dropped, and then you lose the patient and other patients altogether. My friend's husband just started his private practice this year after being so frustrated with hospital rules and regs that he felt prevented him from being a good doctor.</p>
<p>I guess it's the "life or death" aspect that makes it easier to deal with those kind of issues as a lawyer rather than a doctor. We (those of us in private practice) can't really help folks with small matters....no one wants to spend $5000 to collect $5000. Most of these people aren't anyone you'd take on a pro bono basis...they're normal middle class people who can't afford the legal system. But if no one will discount their rates to help them, they're just out the $5000; they don't die or become disabled.</p>
<p>Every lawyer I ever knew or worked with had days when he/she wanted to chuck it. However, when I actually did chuck the paycheck and the bonus (along with the stress and not seeing my children awake), every lawyer in my firm was horrified. I bet the MDs are mostly the same.</p>
<p>This scares me. My boyfriend is pre-med, and I've never met anyone that honest-to-god loves medicine like he does. He's an EMT and he's dreamed forever of becoming a doctor, and it scares me to think that in twenty years, he could hate it and regret it.</p>
<p>I try to temper his enthusiasm with facts (stats like these, med school acceptance rates) but he knows all of this and still wants to pursue medicine. The same thing goes for most other premed and medical students I know - they <em>know</em> the burnout rate, are aware of the crumbling healthcare system, and still want to become doctors. I wonder if in twenty years, these students will be as burned out, if they're going into it with their eyes open?</p>
<p>See this article and the numerous comments</p>
<p>The</a> Misery of the Med Student - Well Blog - NYTimes.com</p>
<p>luckycharmed, Don't worry that far in advance. Believe me, I love to worry ahead so I understand the temptation. Perhaps he may regret his choice down the road but you know for sure he would regret not going for something he feels so passionately about.</p>
<p>Plus, I can't help it, I'm always hopeful. The health care system will change in this country. It may change for the worse but I think it's going to change for the better. Perhaps your boyfriend will be among the generation of doctors who get to work in a better system.</p>
<p>I too and hope the healthcare system will reform - but I worry that as we switch to a universal healthcare system (which I think is inevitable) physicians' salaries will go down, and to be honest, a large salary is absolutely necessary when you're $300K in debt.</p>
<p>That article and the comments bring up interesting points - perhaps there will be a higher burnout rate in the future since students entering medicine now have only ever seen unhappy doctors. I particularly like one comment, though:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Medical school wasn’t easy; it’s not supposed to be, but I enjoyed almost all of it. Even the rotations that weren’t my favorite I tried to approach them thinking that each day I would learn something new and have fun. If you allow yourself to be overwhelmed and think that it’s all misery and suffering than it will be. I find that you have to enjoy every day and all the little moments it brings, otherwise you will be miserable at whatever you are doing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I went into "Biglaw" out of law school. When I told a friend of mine that I was leaving to become a headhunter, he said "Isn't that like becoming a doctor and then deciding to sell Ginsu knives?" I guess there are doctors who would choose to sell the knives too. </p>
<p>I was asked to speak at a top law school several years ago - about hot practice areas. That would be a short speech now! At the end, I told them that, even though this is off topic, the main issue is expectation. I told them not to expect to love it and, even if they love it, live as if they are going to leave it. The warning was not to live at their means because finances are the main stumbling block to job mobility. Of course, they looked at me like I was nuts.</p>