A cautionary Tale & Question

College Search & Selection
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Yes, but if someone’s interested in aerospace engineering, UAH gets mentioned, no matter what the person’s need for scholarship money. When does AAMU get mentioned, if not for the money?

Yes, I totally agree. There are many HBCUs with strengths that can benefit a variety of students, regardless of race. It just seems that HBCUs very rarely get mentioned unless in a monetary context, which feels like a devaluing of HBCUs and what they offer. This is making me think that I should start a thread on the strengths of various HBCUs so that our community can use that as a resource in helping to recommend HBCUs in situations beyond finances…assuming, of course, that the context feels right.

EDIT: Here’s the created thread Areas of Strength at HBCUs

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Austen- that would be a helpful thread. In the same vein, I know SO many women who did NOT want an all woman’s college but who ended up at one- and LOVED the experience. HS kids have to be dragged kicking and screaming to see what Bryn Mawr or Wellesley have to offer- and when the fit is right (and if the finances work) they never look back!

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Perhaps AAMU should be mentioned in an aerospace context, since it is in the Huntsville area near rocket-related employment (like UAH) and its ME major offers a propulsion systems concentration.

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Here it is: Areas of Strength at HBCUs

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I think there are very few on here that advocate anything other than that. Many of us do though prioritize, much as @JackH2021 outlined, and will push back a little when it’s obvious that a decision is coming down to two choices, one of which that is obviously financially crippling.

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I think that many here look at it from the viewpoint of the parent or family. They have a budget in mind, an absolute cap on how much debt they want, especially looking forward to their own retirements. So their decisions tend to be “limited” by that…what to call it? End of life based decision.

On the other hand, the children have few limits to their dreams. They have an entire lifetime ahead and swing big when allowed to…or decide to regardless of external factors and family choices.

Over here, I went public, cheaper, two jobs, paid off college During college, tech $$$, semi-retired by 40s.

On the other hand, sister went Stanford, joked you’re blowing away a Lexus a year in tuition, didn’t pay off college, non-profit $, then NY for film, didn’t pay off that, still working decades later, $100k+ to pay.

Now, would either of us trade?
Hell, no!
Happy with our decisions?
Absolutely!
Any issues with the $?
No. No blinders - we Knew going in.

…

I think more useful for everyone would be a college expense personal finance planner and outlook guide post for families and students - one section for each - with predicted payoff schedules based on low, mid, high income jobs and $,$$,$$$ schools.
In a finance section.

Maybe even an addendum on living with the choices you make in life. Like starting with do what your gut feels best based on the info and knowledge and skills you have at any moment - that’s the “best” you can do, so you can’t really regret decisions even if they don’t turn out as you imagined.

Then, posts become less cluttered because they become “your choices are A$, B$$, and C$$$”. Then the family/student can refer to the guide, finance section, and relevant posts there.

…

This better separates the two - decision of the best matching school vs financing education. (Or three vs making and living with choices.)

On the flip side, it’s the opposite of sports.
Do I finish college and get the degree, then go pro years later?
Or do I go pro now and dump college?
Years later, will I be rich? Get the Top spot?

No idea. But I still believe the “student” should drive the decision based on what their wants are, and if their financing works, go for it!

And thankfully, this isn’t some sharky car dealer pressuring on the spot to buy now with poor terms. The kids have years to choose and decide from the first psat to the last year of high school.

What is quite unfortunate is that unless they go independent, the money-grubbing, over priced schools (according to the books showing the shift from educating to money making) and government have made it nearly impossible to take on the debt as an “adult”, independent of mom and dad. Despite the fact top schools have endowments that can give free tuitions to everyone (which a few medical schools thankfully have done).

…

Anyways this sort of financial talk should be in one finance section, not scattered and poorly explained/mentioned in each post as a consideration for school choice.

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As for fitting in to any group, place, or school, one never knows until one is there… Much like wondering if one loves tofu.

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Nothing is “obviously crippling”. There are many financial risks in life which turn out fine (or even terrific) even though outsiders may consider them “obviously crippling”. I took on huge debt for an MBA; did an accelerated program so it took 14 months start to finish so I minimized my time out of the workforce, and more than tripled my salary the week AFTER I graduated vs. the week BEFORE I started.

Everyone I knew, including my then boss, who tried to get me to stay at my job and do a cheaper (less prestigious) part-time program, told me it was an insane plan, no guarantees, crippling debt, blah blah blah.

So no, I don’t believe in “obviously crippling”. And mind you- my non-government loans were at an 8 and 10% interest rate!!! Not a plan that works for everyone, but I was prepared to make whatever trade-off’s I would need to and I paid off the loans early.

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When parents say things like “I don’t know how I’ll pay for the other children,” or “I won’t be able to retire,” or “we’ll have to take a second on the house,” all of which I’ve responded to, and more, I don’t take them lightly. If they’re asking for feedback in an open forum, they should expect honest, reasoned advice on the balance of their decision. At the end of the day, it is absolutely their decision.

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Would you recommend that a student take $140k of parent-cosigned loans to study for (for example) a bachelor’s degree in psychology at Hofstra? Or perhaps recreation management at a private or out-of-state public school?

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I wouldn’t recommend $140K of parent-co signed loans for anything. Not even CC’s holy trinity of CS/Engineering/Finance. And cannot imagine a situation where I would recommend recreation management as a college major.

But it’s not obviously crippling (to an outsider). Perhaps one of the parents is a few years away from selling their startup… they’ve been boot-strapping and paid themselves a modest salary but will likely cash out big time. Perhaps a 90 year old grandparent has named the kid in their will- so at the moment, the family is strapped, but a few years from now the situation is likely to be different. Perhaps a parent is in the midst of a personal injury lawsuit where the choice might be settle for $750K or risk going to trial (I served on a malpractice jury and it was clear to the jurors that the plaintiff was using the trial as a vehicle for settling up a bunch of prior financial decisions- none of which were “obviously crippling” by themselves, but in the aggregate, probably unwise…

I can’t weigh in on “obviously crippling”. People know their own financial situations better than strangers on the internet.

What I do think is helpful on CC is for us to help a poster understand OTHER options. Loans for Hofstra vs. affordable at Stonybrook- which other than on Long Island has a MUCH better academic reputation. Or to help our beloved NJ residents understand that Rutgers is considered a fine flagship University even if their HS kid won’t consider it. Or that studying chemistry at Missouri M&T is a fine and rational decision- even if you are out of state- vs. paying for a third tier private U.

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It’s a semantic distinction. We’re all talking about the same thing.

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I actually found it really helpful. It can be easy to fall into the elite or bust mentality when you are surrounded by it, even if it doesn’t reflect your true values. So getting reminded frequently that plenty of kids with high stats choose $0 at Alabama acted as a counterbalance. Turns out, a $350,000 education was not actually the only, or even obvious, choice just because it was elite and he got accepted.

In the end, my kid didn’t go to Alabama or even seriously consider it. But it opened our eyes to other options with similar scholarships, and he found one that was a good fit.

“Just because you can pay, doesn’t mean you want to or have to” was something I needed to hear more than once.

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Eye- I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I know you’ve posted before that MIT and its ilk are entirely overrated (and cost too much) and I disagree with that. It was the most expensive and best fit school one of my kids was accepted to- and it was the right choice for us (relatively young parents at the time with plenty of working years in front of us, healthy, first marriage with no signs of trouble on the horizon, adequate life and disability insurance in case of a catastrophe, etc.)

I know many of my friends IRL think it was “crippling” and an insane choice that our kid made… they told their kids “engineering is engineering” and found the cheapest option. It is hard- even with a close friend- to understand what their financial planning looks like. I never complained about the cost, I never played the victim “poor me spending so much on college”, and frankly, tried hard not to talk about it at all.

But folks assume… that if your kid got into MIT, and you live a relatively modest lifestyle (compared to your neighbors, co-workers, etc) it will be “crippling”. You can’t assume.

I remember a neighborhood gathering during the financial meltdown of 2008 (we knew several people who worked for Bear Stearns, Lehman, and other institutions which were immediately impacted) and as we were leaving, spouse said to me “We’re in big trouble”. I got worried and said “How are we possibly in big trouble?” (we’re both MBA’s and have followed a disciplined diversification strategy) and spouse said “Everyone is talking about how they are cutting back and we can’t cut those things because we don’t buy them at all” which was pretty hilarious. No HBO, golf or tennis memberships, landscaping company, ski weekends, all the stuff everyone else was busy cutting back on…

So I don’t assume. But if asked “is it worth taking out loans for my kid to go to Pace when he could go to Rutgers and we could cashflow it” you know what my answer would be…

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My dad went to MIT. My sister was accepted and turned it down for a full ride.

Based on my beliefs about what the college experience delivers, I’d never pay $300+K for any school, with the possible exception of quantitative analytics at MIT.

That said, you have to look at anything I’ve said here in context. Frequently people will ask “is it worth it?” My answer is always the same…based on what? I counsel people to consider the opportunity cost of the differential, to consider that earnings potential for most majors will be similar, and to understand that they are buying intangibles and not a golden ticket. Every MIT alum who posts here says the same and cautions parents about heavy debt.

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ucbalumnus, Right you are. Sadly, due to physical non-qualification (mainly due to obesity), lack of a HS diploma/GED, or a criminal record, only around 30% of young Americans are eligible for service. That is quite an indictment of our society.

You are also right about “fit” considerations. Military service is certainly not for everyone. It can, however, provide a path for HS grads to improve their lives by gaining skills and imparting some responsibility and discipline, not to mention help pay for a college education both in and out of uniform.

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For an MD I might think that this was okay, but probably for almost nothing else (perhaps an MBA from Harvard or Stanford?).

One daughter is currently studying for an DVM. She reports that the majority of the other students are taking on too much debt, and that they mostly do not want to talk about it. The few students who are taking on no debt at all are often also reluctant to admit to this. I think that $300,000 of debt for a DVM is “obviously crippling”. Some students are taking this on. For someone where a DVM is obviously the right career path but who does not have the financial support, I really do not know what they should do. I am really glad that we do not need to go there.

However, I agree with others that there are tradeoffs. Attending a school that is a bad fit is not likely to come out well. Taking on too much debt is not likely to come out well.

Sometimes this may lead to a situation where there is no school that is a safety in all aspects of “you will get in”, “you will be able to afford it”, and “you will be happy to go there”.

Perhaps one reason why so many of us stress the financial aspects is that a high school senior looking for schools to attend frequently has no clue what it means to take on $100,000 or more in debt. I know that my oldest daughter had no clue what this meant when she was 18 years old, but understood it very well when she was 22, living on her own, and making ends meet on a low paying job (but a low paying job that gave her experience that has been very useful to her).

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I had what in 2022 dollars was likely the equivalent of 140K debt for a top rated MBA (neither Harvard nor Stanford).

1- It was MY debt, my parents didn’t co-sign. They wouldn’t have, and I wouldn’t have asked.

2-I understood (which many students today don’t seem to) that retiring debt quickly (or even on time) is going to mean living modestly- even with a supercharged salary- AND perhaps taking the “soul sucking/high paying” job vs. the “This meets my emotional needs” job. I counsel a LOT of recent college grads- and a few MBA’s-- and boy, their notions of what type of job is “acceptable”, let alone desirable-- is very different from what mine was. And living like a grad student- even with the big paycheck- is not too popular these days when you see your friends going to Aruba for long weekends and comparing notes on Aspen vs. Park City.

3- “back in the day” plenty of people attended colleges (and graduate schools) which were bad fits and frankly- it usually turned out just fine. I’ve already posted about my spouse- but I know a dozen (at least) adults who went where they went. Sometimes a parent was a staff person and the employee benefit just could not be turned down. Or another reason- financial, logistics, etc. I don’t think it’s wrong to tell a HS kid that sometimes a situation just can’t be optimized- and that you want to help the kid make the best possible choice out of some sub-optimal options-- and that it will probably turn out OK.

I have a niece who made a sub-optimal choice. Ended up local, even though she had MUCH more prestigious options. But there was a family situation going on, lots of bad health stuff, and as the eldest kid with the driver’s license she decided on her own to stay close to home-- more for the siblings than the parents who encouraged her to leave town. By junior year she could have transferred- things were stable at home. But she powered through and now has a terrific career and college is in the rear view mirror. She made a mature choice and doesn’t seem to have ever looked back.

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We looked at colleges as being a 3-legged stool, with the legs being finances, academics and fit. For one kid, the fit (and the finances) included her sport. She was able to find a school that had all 3 for her, and a 3-legged stool is balanced and doesn’t wobble.

My other kid’s stool was a little lopsided. Two of the legs were easy to measure with finances and academics. She had to compromise a little on the fit (really wanted a school in California, where many of her friends were going) but there was no way to make her favorite fit school equal the finance leg. She too found a school where the stool could have the 3 legs come out somewhat even.

Notice that prestige wasn’t a leg on the stools.

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