A discussion about the reputation of Berkeley as the top UC school

<p>I think we (Cal, UCLA, and other publics), instead of arguing amongst ourselves which one of us is "best," we should tackle the problem of the general stigma placed on "public" schools in general as opposed to private schools. </p>

<p>People's perceptions become reality. It's amazing the level of sweeping generalizations placed upon the "public" stamp, especially amongst those who tout the ivy's (and private schools in general) are the end all of all education (for undergrad or even in general).</p>

<p>
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I meant that the quality of the undergraduate education depends on the program. I'd pick Berkeley English over UCLA English any day of the week, for instance.

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<p>Yes, even on Tuesdays.</p>

<p>Personally, I would pick Cal over UCLA any day of the week, with one hand tied behind my back. ;)</p>

<p>Seriously though, khan is right, we need to break the percepection of undergraduate UC mediocrity that put upper-tier but not top schools like Notre Dame or Duke ahead of Cal in the USNWR rankings and increasingly in the young impressionable minds of 17-yr old applicants.</p>

<p>That sentence should be: "I think we (Cal, UCLA, and other publics) should, instead of arguing amongst ourselves which of us is "best," be tackling the problem of the general stigma placed on "public..."</p>

<p>sry, SATs have made me a grammar freak.</p>

<p>From a nationwide and worldwide perspective, I think Berkeley is given just as much respect as the Ivys.</p>

<p>University of California system is very respectable in the world because of Berkeley, and the research Berkely has done. For one thing, discovering 16 elements (including plutonium) is nothing to scoff at, and Berkeley's contribution to the Manhattan Project made the nuclear bomb possible, thus revolutionizing the world.</p>

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From a nationwide and worldwide perspective, I think Berkeley is given just as much respect as the Ivys.

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<p>Let me explain why. This is COLLEGE Confidential. People on this board care about the quality of the undergrad not the grad so much.</p>

<p>Internationally Berkeley has a lot of respect, partly because of its very strong graduate program. Although if you go to Asia, the people (unless they're really up to date on things like a college president) know HYPSM, UC Berkeley, UCLA, and only a few of the other Ivies, and maybe one or two elite privates. Honestly though, the average American can't even name all the schools in the Ivy League.</p>

<p>I disagree with you that Berkeley has as much respect nationwide than the Ivies though.</p>

<p>BS dyip, Berkeley's international rep is not just about its grad school. If you look at undergraduate engineering for example, Cal is equal or above "PSM" and of course "HY" don't do engineering. I don't think that ACADEMIC rankings of Cal undergraduate departments fare much worse than its graduate depts.</p>

<p>Bottom line, it's mostly about non-academic factors such as social cachet and social appeal permeating into the metrics used in the USNWR poll that have changed perceptions, along with some cultural changes over time (students generally more materialistic, private schools seen as a better path to social climbing etc.)</p>

<p>berkeley = best</p>

<p>southern california students need to stop lying to themselves to make themselves feel better about having the second best UC (ucla)...</p>

<p>of course, ucla is a great school, and when people do choose la over berkeley, its usually a location/atmosphere isue, or the exception of ucla having a better program.</p>

<p>but overall.......nuff said</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think we (Cal, UCLA, and other publics), instead of arguing amongst ourselves which one of us is "best," we should tackle the problem of the general stigma placed on "public" schools in general as opposed to private schools. </p>

<p>People's perceptions become reality. It's amazing the level of sweeping generalizations placed upon the "public" stamp, especially amongst those who tout the ivy's (and private schools in general) are the end all of all education (for undergrad or even in general).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, I didn't exactly start this thread to argue which UC is best, in which case I would have titled it "UCLA vs UCB."</p>

<p>I want UCB to improve, to be up there with all the private elites, instead of next to UCLA and UCSD, as just "good for a public school."</p>

<p>Today I was talking to this sophomore in my school who wants to go to Stanford. She said to me (I was wearing my Berkeley sweatshirt): "Oh you're going to Berkeley? Good job...but I would never go to a public university."</p>

<p>.....</p>

<p><em>STAB</em></p>

<p><em>gives you an alibi</em></p>

<p>Does this make you my accomplice? ;)</p>

<p>I've figured it out! I've had an epiphany.</p>

<p>Why is it that so many top Californian students treat Berkeley as a back-up? Attending only if they don't get into any of the Ivies, Stanford, and CalTech?? Why do public schools get such a bad rep?</p>

<p>It's selectivity.</p>

<p>Berkeley is so large such as that it must admit many students. Since it's less selective and easier to get into, many students just treat it as a backup to those more selective schools. By the same logic, Cornell is often treated as the "safety Ivy." Is it any wonder that when compared to the Ivies, only students choosing between Cornell and Berkeley have trouble deciding most of the time?</p>

<p>But wait, don't the students care about the quality of their education? They are some of the smartest kids in the nation...they must have figured that out right? The answer seems to be no. An overwhelming majority would pick Harvard over Princeton or Dartmouth in a heartbeat, even though those two are better for undergrad. </p>

<p>So why does selectivity matter so much? Because if you go to a selective school, that means you are better. That's how we think. If I was admitted to a school that was harder to get into, that must mean the school is better, and I am better than the students at a less selective university.</p>

<p>I bet this is has a lot to do with why public schools are perceived, in the eyes of prospective students, as lesser schools than more selective private schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bottom line, it's mostly about non-academic factors such as social cachet and social appeal permeating into the metrics used in the USNWR poll that have changed perceptions, along with some cultural changes over time (students generally more materialistic, private schools seen as a better path to social climbing etc.)

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<p>As I've said in the past, I agree with this, and a major reason why Berkeley has fallen in the public eye is due to this.</p>

<p>Not everyone needs the "safety net" that private schools give, and most that are able to make it don't need it in the first place. Nowadays, however, it's far more popular to go to schools that offer that level of handholding as it's seen as a metric for quality.</p>

<p>Academics themselves have fallen rather by the wayside as US News ranking methodology has replaced that with other factors instead. While funding isn't as great as that of private schools, the classes themselves aren't in any way deficient.
There aren't that many large classes (as electives allow students to branch off in classes other than the introductory) and even those that are, the quality doesn't suffer significantly--you aren't going to have very much meaningful student interaction at an introductory level in any case.</p>

<p>No offense to Notre Dame or Vanderbilt, but does anyone believe that academic quality is greater at these institutions than Berkeley? What about Washington University in St. Louis? These schools have strengths in their own areas, but the rankings would make it seem academically these schools are stronger as well (for the general audience of those rankings).</p>

<p>Berkeley has flaws, but they don't lie as much in academics than they do selectivity.</p>

<p>
[quote]
She said to me (I was wearing my Berkeley sweatshirt): "Oh you're going to Berkeley? Good job...but I would never go to a public university."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>At least she said Berkeley is a "good job." When I told people I was going to Berkeley, quite a few people offered condolences and tried to assure me I would succeed regardless.</p>

<p>"At least she said Berkeley is a "good job." When I told people I was going to Berkeley, quite a few people offered condolences and tried to assure me I would succeed regardless."</p>

<p>Allorion, you've got to be kidding me right? Are these people on crack? Nearly everyone I told that I was going to Berkeley was pretty impressed and I'm sure this is the overwhelming reaction most Cal students recieve.</p>

<p>-_-</p>

<p>I've mentioned selectivity in the past and understand the mindset. It is probably Berkeley's one largest problem. I would call it a flaw but I have no politically feasible solution to it.</p>

<p>Think of your high school career as an investment. There is a certain amount that you "pay" during that time to be able to "buy" a good school.</p>

<p>Think, however, if you are academically strong enough to "buy" one of the best Ivy League schools or another elite private school, you instead choose to "buy" Berkeley instead.
There's nothing wrong with the product itself--except you just got shortchanged. So many people bought the same product, for a hell of a lot less than you did.</p>

<p>You would, in this case, feel as if you got ripped off or got a bad deal. That is why, I believe, so many people choose other schools. I believe that because it was the reason I almost didn't choose Berkeley.</p>

<p>Edit: </p>

<p>CardinalFocused, at my school there are enough people that go to Berkeley to make it a commodity rather than an honor. Many people were expecting me to go to a private school--in fact, when I got my Rice decision interim, I basically (along with other people) crossed Berkeley off the list in predictions of where I was going.</p>

<p>That was before I looked into other factors and did my own research rather than crossed off universities under the highest ranked university I was accepted to. Amazing, how much a person changes in perception in about two weeks after college decisions.</p>

<p>HAHAHA. I find that hard to believe.</p>

<p>The thing is, I'm not even talking about the "safety net" or "funding." While those do matter, it seems like selectivity ALONE has an effect on the perception of a University. I mean, if Harvard accepts 25% I doubt it would be as prestigious. It just wouldn't get all the "<em>gasp</em> 9.1%?? That's the lowest acceptance ever of any college!" that I kept hearing last year.</p>

<p>And I find this to be quite lame.</p>

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HAHAHA. I find that hard to believe.

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<p>What exactly is it you find hard to believe?</p>

<p>
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The thing is, I'm not even talking about the "safety net" or "funding." While those do matter, it seems like selectivity ALONE has an effect on the perception of a University. I mean, if Harvard accepts 25% I doubt it would be as prestigious. It just wouldn't get all the "<em>gasp</em> 9.1%?? That's the lowest acceptance ever of any college!" that I kept hearing last year.

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<p>I don't disagree with you, and if you look up my past posts, it's my position as well.</p>

<p>Selectivity came first. However, with selectivity, perceptions of colleges changed to the most selective being the most prestigious.
People started looking at how these colleges differed from those less selective colleges, and that became justification for why you would want to go to those universities rather than the less selective one.</p>

<p>It just so happens that the most selective colleges are the ones that give the most independent attention, etc. They aren't independent variables, but how many people do you hear say that because college A is harder to get into than college B, you should go there solely for that reason?</p>

<p>Instead, those other variables are cited--because it seems so much more compassionate and less prestige hungry to go on "fit" factors.</p>

<p>I don't disagree with you either. I'm saying that the safety net and funding make privates more appealing, but even without them, I still think selectivity would make them seem more appealing. Which is lame. Yeah some people go because it's a better fit, but there are some who go mainly because it's more selective.</p>

<p>And I found this:</p>

<p>
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At least she said Berkeley is a "good job." When I told people I was going to Berkeley, quite a few people offered condolences and tried to assure me I would succeed regardless.

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</p>

<p>to be hard to believe. CardinalFocused got to it before I did.</p>

<p><em>shrug</em></p>

<p>Believe it or don't, it isn't terribly important to me--I'm merely giving my own experience. The first reaction for the first person I told I was going to Berkeley after all the Ivy decisions came out was a blurted, "You didn't get into anywhere else?"</p>

<p>Then, afterwards, a hasty, "Well, Berkeley's a great school!"</p>

<p>The advisor for the club I founded took me to aside and asked me, "Are you going there because you want to, or because you want to spare your parents the financial burden?"</p>

<p>For a while, I wasn't terribly enamored with Berkeley, and strongly considered going elsewhere even though I had told people that I was going to Berkeley in great part due to the reaction.</p>

<p>It wasn't a majority of people who said that--most people were congratulatory--but it was enough to make me daudle for a long time considering and researching.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't disagree with you either. I'm saying that the safety net and funding make privates more appealing, but even without them, I still think selectivity would make them seem more appealing. Which is lame. Yeah some people go because it's a better fit, but there are some who go mainly because it's more selective.

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<p>We're going around in circles agreeing with each other, but with somewhat different wording than each other each time.</p>

<p>If all the most selective schools gave free birthday parties, people would begin stating that other schools aren't as good because they don't care enough to give free birthday parties.</p>

<p>There will always be more socially acceptable reasons to choose the more prestigious school, since whatever characteristics they possess will always be cherry-picked and turned into something of paramount importance.</p>

<p>Lame? Well, it depends. I can understand why some people would want to go to the most selective college they can. Perhaps these people won't be as happy at those colleges, but they wouldn't be happy at the less selective college anyway.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with wanting your work to take you as far as it can.</p>

<p>You wouldn't argue that if Berkeley was suddenly forced to take on twice of its current undergraduate class that it would stay exactly the same in student quality, would you?</p>

<p>I disagree with you on the point that selectivity doesn't matter--it is probably the absolute most important factor in a university, since it determines the strength of its student body, and thus its intellectual atmosphere.</p>

<p>What I don't agree with is Berkeley's reputation for not being very selective and US News's criteria for selectivity. There is a strong degree of self-selection in most potential applicants for Berkeley.
It is known as more numbers driven than the private schools, and thus random Joes and Janes that would have applied, even with low stats, to Harvard or whatever because they hope that some random stroke of luck will get them in... will not apply to Berkeley.</p>

<p>Even among out of state students--besides the out of state tuition, Berkeley is known for being brutal in its acceptances, thus only the best of the best out of state (this particular pool being the more limited) and international students apply.</p>

<p>These factors, coupled with the fact that Berkeley must take so many, is what kills the US News criteria for selectivity.</p>

<p>I would have little respect for Berkeley and little desire to go to Berkeley if it isn't as selective as it is. If it wasn't selective, professors and academics may be different, but the students and thus the atmosphere would be the same as a party school.</p>

<p>It can improve, however, since the pool it must take IS very large in truth, and few people would deny there is a large disparity in quality between the best students at Berkeley and the worst. Thus, selectivity being less DOES hurt Berkeley in this way (needing to accept more students), especially since it also has selectivity that forces it to turn away many possibly strong OOS applicants for weaker applicants that are in-state.</p>

<p>Some people genuinely use fit to determine schools. Others will look at the prestige of a school and use fit to justify their decision. The second, in my cynical opinion, is more common than the first.</p>

<p>Selectivity matters in that the school doesn't allow sub-par students to attend. However, say starting this year, Berkeley decide to admit 1/4 as many students (with 23000 undergrad, it's about 4 times as many as Harvard's ~6000). Its admissions rate this year is 23.6%. This means it will now be 5.9%. Now I wonder how Berkeley would be viewed in the eyes of the public! Nothing else has changed. The school is the same, the education is the same, the same students who were admitted would have been admitted if they admitted 23.6%, but public perception suddenly goes up.</p>

<p>Sure you may argue that there are many mediocre students who are at Berkeley now who will not be if Berkeley admits only 1/4 of the students, but the top students are there in both cases. It should be those top students who matter because you can learn from them. And if Berkeley really wanted to increase the student quality, it's not that hard to accomplish: admit almost every OOS. They are on average much more qualified than in-staters. Also, make community transfers much harder. This would weed out some of the weakest candidates. </p>

<p>Now, increase in-state tuition by 1,500 (not that much), and decrease OOS tuition by 6,000, and give 5,000 more to regent scholars. (considering 7% are OOS and regents are rare, this is entirely feasible) This would immediately attract many more top students to Berkeley, and increase the quality of the student population. However, I doubt if these were implemented (btw they never will), that prospective students would say "wow this means more top students will attend, so I will want to attend." It probably wouldn't have as much of an effect as "wow 5.9%!! That's lower than any of the Ivies by far!!" even if the 5.9% is accompanied by nothing. That's what troubles me.</p>

<p>(btw, yeah I know if Berkeley admits 1/4 of the students, class sizes will be smaller, but a popular statistic has been cited numerous times that class sizes are about the same at Cal and Stanford, yet it doesn't do anything for Berkeley's reputation, so I doubt people will care about that either)</p>