A is for admission

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi, I'm new to this site, and was wondering if my daughter would have a shot at Amherst College.
Currently she is third in her class of 250. </p>

<p>Her stats are: </p>

<p>SAT 2170 (V710, M700, W 760). She will be taking them again Saturday. </p>

<p>SAT II scores of Bio (750), Math II 720. </p>

<p>AP Bio (5), AP Amer. Hist. (4). </p>

<p>She is the Rensselaer Medal Winner from her school (best science student), and also the Harvard Book Award winner; both won in her junior year. </p>

<p>She was just named a National Merit Scholarship Semi-Finalist, as well. </p>

<p>Currently a Senior taking three more AP courses (English, Stats, Calculus) Her GPA is a 4.1. She wishes to major in biology with a minor in dance. She has danced with our state ballet for ten years, and is very committed (20-25 hrs/wk). </p>

<p>She is applying early decision to Amherst. The reason I named this "A is for Admission" is because i read the book by Michelle Hernandez about academic indexes at IVY's and other LAC's. Does anyone know if that formula still holds true? If so, what does Amherst use for admission? </p>

<p>What do you think? I'd love to hear from someone regarding her chances. Thank you.</p>

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<p>She certainly appears to be a strong candidate. I'm not an admissions officer, but I think she stands a really good chance. I assume dance is her main EC. Does she do some other things?</p>

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<p>Dance consumes much of her non-educational time. In addition she is a staff member and contributing writer for the school's literary magazine, and serves as a peer tutor in math and science about 6 hrs. per week. She has a summer job as well, about 25 hrs. per week.</p>

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<p>IMHO, the AI data from Hernandez's book is woefully outdated. And, if one believes the schools, none of them follow such a formula.</p>

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<p>FWIW, Hernandez does have an AI calculator on her website.</p>

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<p>The great point of A is for Admission is that admissions to the most selective schools, for purely academic applicants, is a lot tougher than you might think. Most schools don't use the Academic Index, which she describes with such particularity, but you can bet they use some standar which is like it. When that book came out some years ago, most people hadn't yet caught on to the "recentering" of the SATs, and assumed that a 1400 gave you a good shot at anywhere. That's simply no longer true, and the book was among the first to alert people to how tough the academic competition really is.</p>

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<p>From the web site of Hernandez

[quote]

"Although the Ivy League schools spent many years denying they used any kind of formula, they in fact have been using a ranking formula since the 1950’s called the Academic Index, AI for short. Though it has traditionally been used for sports purposes (maintaining some kind of academic standard on the various athletic teams), every Ivy League school still calculates an AI for every student. Why? Because the average AI of the athletic teams cannot be more than one standard deviation away from the average AI of the entire class, but the only way to know that is to calculate an AI for every student."

[/quote]

[quote]
From Yale Herald Responsibility for enforcing the League's high academic standards rests with the deans of admissions. However, there are specific rules to aid this process, the most significant of which is the widely misunderstood Academic Index (AI). [See graph below.] The AI is a complex formula using class rank, SAT scores, and Achievement Test scores to measure academic qualification. Implemented in 1986, the AI ensures that each Ivy League school maintains admissions standards for recruited athletes that are comparable to the requirements for the student body as a whole. </p>

<p>"With exploding national television coverage in college sports in the '80s, some were concerned that if requirements such the AI weren't set, schools would be under pressure to self-determine academic standards for athletes," Ivy League Executive Director Jeffrey Orleans, PC '67, said. </p>

<p>The impact of the AI is particularly evident with the emergence of football at Columbia. In the early 1990s, after the Ivy League relaxed AI standards exclusively for Columbia football, the Lions went from a 2-8 record in 1993 to a strong 5-4 last season. "Getting more recruits in the lower bands has definitely helped Columbia," Cozza said. </p>

<p>"The AI relies on precise data and is really a pain. But it seems to have done its job," Yale Associate Provost and Ivy Policy Committee member Lloyd Suttle, ES '69, said. </p>

<p>Yale and its H-Y-P counterparts in Cambridge and Princeton have traditionally held an advantage in drawing top student-athletes because of their unparalleled prestige. But, as the most selective of the Ivies, these three schools have higher AI averages that further limit the pool of qualified athletes available each year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
From Dartmouth web site: The athletic admissions process in the Ivy League is governed by a wide range of policies and regulations. The central feature in this regulation is the academic index (AI). This is a measure consisting of three parts using the high school rank or GPA, combined with the highest SAT I scores, combined with the three highest SAT II scores. All Ivy schools are obligated to use the exact same methodology in calculating AIs. In admitting students who are recruited as athletes in one of the 33 "Ivy championship" sports, each school has numerical limits (depending on the number of sports it offers), and an AI goal that is a function of the mean AI for its entire student body (i.e., four classes). The AI goal is one standard deviation from this mean. Most Ivy schools have very similar AI targets. Because the eight Ivy student bodies have slightly different profiles, their AI targets are very similar but not identical. In addition, there is a minimum AI, or floor, below which schools cannot admit an athlete without special dispensation from the League.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>there has to be some truth to the use of an AI. After all, Dartmouth and the other IVY's most definitely used it while Ms. Hernandez was writing her book. I'm sure some change to the formula has taken place, but you cannot tell me that these schools don't use formulas for admission. EC's and AP's can only aid in increasing one's formulaic AI, but these schools must start with some base and standard. I'd love to hear more from folks who know more about the admissions process and the use of an AI for admission.</p>

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<p>My question is, with the advent of the new SAT how has the academic index changed? In the past it was your 2 best SAT I scores and 3 best SAT II scores. Do they assume the Writing section is one of the SAT IIs?</p>

<p>The reason I ask is that some of the Ivy League schools only require 2 SAT IIs now . . . so how are they all staying in compliance?</p>

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<p>I believe the formula would have to change a little: example:</p>

<p>AI = [SAT(CR) + SAT(M) + SAT(WR)] / 3</p>

<ul>
<li>[SATII+SATII] / 2</li>
</ul>

<p>This really changes the formula very little, providing the college with the same information to place an AI on students.</p>

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<p>Here is a link to an article in Brown Alumni magazine entitled 'Ivy League presidents have just made it tougher for athletes to get in.'</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brownmagazine.org/storydetail.cfm?ID=2140%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brownmagazine.org/storydetail.cfm?ID=2140&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The jist of it is that the lowest allowable AI (without an exemption) for recruited athletes was raised (in 2003) a whooping 2 points from 169 to 171. Top 50% class rank and 600's on SAT's and II's will get you that.</p>

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<p>Wow!! I guess athletes really do have an upper hand for admission to great schools. I guess it all comes down to what each school is looking for during a particular admissions session.</p>

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<p>Note, BJM8, the "athlete effect" is probably even greater for highly competitive LAC's that field many teams, due to the smaller size of the student body to draw from in the first place.</p>

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<p>sorry to bump and older thread, but does anyone know how colleges will use the AI with the writing section included in the SAT I?</p>

<p>Would they just use Writing as an SAT II score, and bump the lowest SAT II out?</p>

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<p>I don’t know if Amherst or any other selective LAC actually uses the specific A1 formula that MH outlines, but I do know that they follow the same general principles: that is, a holistic, multifaceted approach to admissions. It is partly statistical (scores, grades, and rank) partly subjective (essays, recommendations, interviews) and party “what can you bring to the party” (your hook: special talent or diversity status). If you have a weakness in one area, you can compensate by having a strength in another; however, many students at top LACs score highly on all three.</p>

<p>BJM8 (If you’re still reading) Welcome! Your daughter seems to be a solid candidate for Amherst, especially ED, but just because of its selectivity, it’s still a reach, so she should be sure to have well balanced list.</p>

<p>Because of her interest in dance, I’d also suggest that she take a look at Williams. Williams has many of the same attributes as Amherst and is actively recruiting kids with performing arts talents. Your daughter’s dance background would be a strong hook.</p>

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<p>Momrath:</p>

<p>Williams uses a system like the AI index. They assign an academic rating from 1 to 9 with one being the best. </p>

<p>Virtually all "1s" are admitted. About 65% of "2s" are admitted. The college won't accept an 8 or a 9. They've cut back on low-band recruited athletes, admitting just ten 7's for the Class of 2006.</p>

<p>The average for the whole class excluding "tipped" athletes was 2.8 in for fall 2000. The average for the 66 "tipped" athletes was a 5. If my math is right, that would put the overall school average at right around a 3.</p>

<p>That pretty much follows the AI approach -- although the numbers are reversed. In AI, it takes a 8 or a 9 to be admitted based on academics. 6s and 7s need a little something extra. 3s, 4s, and 5s need a hook.</p>

<p>I think all of the schools use some kind of system like that although most won't admit to it. I actually found the AI calculator very useful. It gives an idea how much of an "extra" boost you'll need to have a decent shot at schools in the Dartmouth, Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst, Brown selectivity range. I think the mistake may CC'ers make is focusing too much on the SATs and not understanding how heavily class rank is weighted in the AI formula. You see that a lot in the "What I My Chances" threads -- pages of stats but no indication of class rank or type of high school. 1550 SATs will kill you with a weak class rank.</p>

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<p>I'm so glad that this discussion continues! Interesting that Williams uses some sort of AI, but no other college admits to using it. They all judge you by some standards set forth by the AC, but I do believe that the AI is alive and kicking in some form or another!</p>

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<p>idad,</p>

<p>I agree that the students obsess over their SAT Reasoning scores but that is only 1/3 of the AI. They need to place as much emphasis on the SAT Subject Test scores and their class rank.</p>

<p>However, many schools do not rank, though the colleges can estimate. Based upon MH's book you can help your class rank through other things, i.e. scoring well on a number of AP tests, outside awards, etc. She specifically lists the AP and IB tests as a way to show strength of curriculum in a competitive high school. On the other hand, it is not good enough to take an AP class, you need to also take the test.</p>

<p>Regardless, you may not have to be in the top 5%-10% of your class. If you have your heart set on one of these schools I do think you need to be in the top 20%</p>

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<p>BJM8 - I have a child in a top ten LAC. Ignore IA, ignore statistics; they mean little when it comes to the INDIVIDUAL.</p>

<p>Of course your child has a shot. The thing is to have a good <strong>application</strong>, since just about everyone who applies has a shot - LACs get tons of kids with great class rank, great scores, etc. The trick is to make them see YOU (the student). My child visited, spent time overnight, got to know a faculty member, and thus had a LOT to say during the interview and in the essays. Besides the two Common App essays - which kicked a<em>s</em>s*, a THIRD was actually submitted to cover ANOTHER topic! To this day the President of the school greets us at various meetings with comments about the essays (hence they must have gotten around! The admissions staff commented on them too).</p>

<p>** NOTA BENE:** The reason they were kick a<em>s</em>s essays is because he had a lot of integrated stuff to write ABOUT, including accomplishments and what he had thought about them and done with them, not just because he's a good writer.</p>

<p>People spend way too much time worry about things that don't matter for LACs. Once you have the baseline scores, you are ONLY at Square One.</p>

<p>PS He also had several VERY good reasons to go to THAT PARTICULAR LAC, not simply because he wanted to go to a top school. I KNOW this made a difference. LACs want people who WANT to be there, not to be at just any top school. Everything from the programs to the geography made a difference to my son. Your daughter needs to express why she wants Amherst (beyond something lame like, "I just fell in love").</p>

<p>People with stats in the middle of the pack also got in over the usual suspects with the 1600s (old SAT), being valedictorian, etc. This is true at all selective schools - another reason AI isn't everything.</p>

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<p>Another thing, some schools differentiate between Academic classes, i.e. English, Math, Science, etc. and non-Academic, gym, keyboarding, religion, etc. Because of this you may be able to get your counselor to provide more of a context with an Academic recalculation . . . if you did poorly in gym. Some of the colleges do this recalculation anyway. This also can provide for some upward and downward mobility in class rank.</p>