A message to my fellow vets.

Student Lounge Veterans
1

<p>A veterans section. It's about time.</p>

<p>I'm an Army vet, finishing my last semester at the local CC. I'm trying to transfer to some pretty prestigious schools: Columbia University School of General Studies, and Amherst College to name a few.</p>

<p>In my quest to transfer to the best school possible I've realized - as I'm sure many of you have - that many top universities completely ignore veterans. These are the same universities of course that extol diversity and brag about how their institutions are "need blind" and "open to students from all socio-economic backgrounds". We, as veterans, know that this is only one kind of diversity. Allowing deserving veterans to join these prestigious institutions, injects a unique perspective to classrooms and discussions that the average Ivy League student would benefit from hearing. Our experiences and service, especially in a time of war, should, by default, trump most of the extra-curricular activities that students advertise on their applications. </p>

<p>If accepted to one of these top universities, I will be committed to using those credentials as a soap box to get this message across to anyone who will listen to me. I know that the vets in this country are not being given the chance to live up to their potential in many cases. With few exceptions (UC Berkeley, Columbia U School of General Studies and a few others), most colleges that are among the Top 25 in national rankings do not extend a hand service members. We need to work to change that.</p>

2

<p>jaykoblives--If you've found that some top institutions don't seem to be rolling out the welcome mat for veterans, you may be surprised to learn that, individually, many admission officials are in your corner, do respect the diversity of experiences you will bring to their campuses, and will lobby for you behind those closed admission-committee doors. </p>

<p>Once you matriculate, I do hope you volunteer to help your admission office with outreach efforts to recruit more veterans. </p>

<p>Good luck to you!</p>

3

<p>Read Marching to College by Sean-Michael Green. He's a vet who joined the marines with poor high school grades and eventually separated. He attended community college and ended up graduating from UPenn with a masters then headed to Cornell Law. </p>

<p>It helped me debunk a few stereotypes I held about top colleges, clarify the admissions process, as well as better understand the students who attend the colleges.</p>

<p>One admissions officer said that they've admitted veterans in the past and they were some of their best performers (in an honors program). </p>

<p>I know I can't control how the colleges work, but I plan to just work hard on my gpa, recall on my experiences when appropriate, and present myself humbly in the application. I want to come across as not feeling entitled to anything, that I earned my way in.</p>

4

<p>^
FreeAtLast, you seem to have the right attitude.</p>

<p>I went immediately to community college after service, maintained a 4.0 GPA and took many honors classes. I'm being considered for transfer admissions by Columbia University School of General Studies, Amherst College (top choice), and a few others.</p>

<p>I do not disagree with going to a CC before transfering to a prestigious four year university. I was careful to use the term "qualified veterans" in my original post. Obviously, Harvard and Yale shouldn't be taking veterans just because they're veterans. It needs to be stressed, however, that veterans status should count for more in the realm of academia than it currently does. As I said, it should easily trump a long list of extra curriculars offered by your typical high school candidate for top colleges.</p>

<p>I'm fairly confident that I will be able to transfer to a top college when all is said and done, but more institutions need to have more consideration for veterans. This is why, no matter which campus I land on, I'll be outspoken in raising awareness for veterans. I will volunteer my services to the admissions office, start a club, and do whatever it takes.</p>

5

<p>You should not denigrate the achievements of high school students. Their achievements are being assessed for quality - how did they excel relative to other students; did they prove to be natural leaders or winners of competitive awards. The number of ECs listed, or the number of hours spent, is not so important.</p>

<p>Veteran status is only desirable if you can prove some intellectual or personal growth from it. It is very easy, at minimal level, to serve in the military. It does not take much ability or initiative, maybe some luck, to simply get through five years.</p>

<p>If you have a compelling story, and good grades and test scores, fine.</p>

6

<p>While not an Ivy, and while not necessarily changing admissions standards for veterans, the University of Rochester has instituted a full tuition scholarship for veterans with 36 months or more of service, admitted for the fall of 2009 and later.
University</a> Pledges Full Scholarships to U.S. Armed Forces Veterans : University of Rochester News
Rochester is definitely a top school.</p>

7

<p>sorghum,
Why do you seem to be so anti-veteran?? A quote from my thread that i started a few weeks ago from you:
"Might be humiliating to write the SAT test with a bunch of high school kids. Might be humiliating to go to a top academic college and sit among 19 year olds who are far better prepared and capable, intellectually, than you are."</p>

<p>You were speaking to someone else in that thread who was also a veteran. I think it's important for me to understand what your point of view is before i respond to what you've been saying.</p>

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/columbia-university/649551-chances-veteran-get-into-columbia.html#post1061788034%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/columbia-university/649551-chances-veteran-get-into-columbia.html#post1061788034&lt;/a> heres the link to the thread i was referring to</p>

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<p>Because, KP, on your thread your fellow veteran had come up with the idea: </p>

<p>"since they require SAT I and two SAT II scores. Taking these tests when you're between 25-30 years old is a pretty humiliating experience."</p>

<p>My point is that a high GPA from a CC needs some validation. If you get a very low SAT, or if you would of gotten a low SAT except you didn't take it, then you are very unlikely to be competitive in a top college classroom.</p>

<p>I have also posted a preference for admitting a girl who drove trucks in Iraq over a marine (of any gender) that never served in combat.</p>

<p>Not all military experience is particularly compelling. Quite a few veterans have a big sense of entitlement - and a feeling of superiority over those high school kids. College is place where academics prevail, not guys spouting a bunch of military acronyms.</p>

<p>But mainly, it is so easy to get a rise out of those (deskbound) veterans, who can resist?</p>

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<p>I take it you've had some run-ins with these "deskbound" veterans. Well to be honest I couldn't agree with you more about them. BUT there are a lot of us (although it's my opinion we're the minority) that have been humbled by the military and have gained a lot through our experiences. Although I did not see combat in Iraq other than getting mortared once in a while, I did have the pleasure of working 14 hour days 7 days a week for 7 months straight outside in harsh conditions. And yes, there were people in other lines of work that sat a desk watching movies all day during their tour and went home and bragged to everyone about their "tough" deployment to Iraq. But lets not forget that there were those who probably worked even harder then I did while putting their life on the line. </p>

<p>Everything else, I pretty much agree with you about. I posted in that same thread that I don't think veterans deserve anything special because of their veteran status. We should earn everything academically like everyone else. I encourage you to shut up the ones who spout out those military acronyms...because if I hear another one after I get out of the marines I'm going to lose my mind.</p>

<p>Lastly, although I do agree with you, you do need to be a lot more tactful when speaking about veterans in general for obvious reasons. But by all means have at it when it comes to those desk veterans.</p>

11

<p>To sorghum:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Veteran status is only desirable if you can prove some intellectual or personal growth from it. It is very easy, at minimal level, to serve in the military. It does not take much ability or initiative, maybe some luck, to simply get through five years.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What's your point, exactly? Obviously everyone's experience is different in the military and the amount of initiative or ability you display will determine what kind of soldier you are. I'm glad you get this. And I also agree with you that one needs to demonstrate to the admissions board that they actually learned something from their experiences.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"My point is that a high GPA from a CC needs some validation. If you get a very low SAT, or if you would of gotten a low SAT except you didn't take it, then you are very unlikely to be competitive in a top college classroom."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The reason you defensively attacked me in the other thread (and felt the need to follow me to this one) is because you misunderstood, apparently, WHY I have a problem taking the SATs. I happen to have no problem with standardized tests. The problem I was pointing out is that the setting in which the SATs are conducted (many times) is inappropriate for someone my age. You cannot imagine the hassle I received at the local high school because they viewed me as an oddity of some sort. It's not something you want to go through before taking any test. If there was a place around here where I could have taken the test with other adults, I wouldn't of had a problem with it. </p>

<p>For the record I scored 700/700/700. Not incredible numbers by Ivy League standards necessarily, but people have been admitted with similar numbers, right? I'm not upset about the situation because I think the SATs will hurt me, and I still think it was an unnecessary exercise. Numerous studies and research have been done to show that SAT scores do not necessarily predict success in college as noted by articles like this: SAT</a> I: A Faulty Instrument For Predicting College Success | FairTest</p>

<p>I'm not going to debate the merits of the SATs with you, though. It's just not that important to me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"You should not denigrate the achievements of high school students."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your insecurities are showing. I take it you're very proud of your accomplishments while in high school. Good for you. And I can say, with no reservation, that the average 18 year old student accepted to Columbia or other prestigious universities are top caliber individuals who I could, in no way, measure up to intellectually or maturity-wise when I was 18 myself. I have never tried to insinuate that I am somehow superior to these individuals. </p>

<p>What I will stick to is my comment that military service trumps 99% of what people refer to as ECs. </p>

<p>
[quote]
"Not all military experience is particularly compelling. Quite a few veterans have a big sense of entitlement - and a feeling of superiority over those high school kids. College is place where academics prevail, not guys spouting a bunch of military acronyms."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have been to college with numerous military veterans since I returned from active duty. Oddly enough, we rarely use military acronyms anymore. We also don't all walk around with shirts proclaiming our branches of service. We don't talk in redneck voices or swill beer on the campus steps while spitting tobacco into plastic bottles. What do we talk about? I know this might shock you but we talk about assignments, professors, academic ideas, social problems, politics, books, theater, grades, our jobs, hopes for the future... </p>

<p>Nice stereo-typing though. </p>

<p>
[quote]
"I have also posted a preference for admitting a girl who drove trucks in Iraq over a marine (of any gender) that never served in combat."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For the record, I was a combat Arms Soldier in Iraq, a 19D Cavalry Scout. </p>

<p>With that said, your statement is entirely ignorant and contradictory to your argument. You have displayed a complete lack of knowledge as to what "deskbound" soldiers do. </p>

<p>Let me educate you. Every MOS in the Army has a GT qualifier. "GT" is a composite score taken from a soldier's ASVAB and is the Army's equivalent of an IQ Score. Many of these desk jobs require the highest GT scores, compared to combat arms MOS' which take just about anyone. Why? Because some of these jobs are extremely technical, especially jobs in S2 Shops (military intelligence). Some of these soldiers, at 18 years old, have sat in meetings with Iraqi diplomats, government officials, Generals, ect. Many of worked with the UN, World Food Program, and many humanitarian Non-Government Organizations. They have secret security clearances, qualifying them for jobs at the UN, Defense Learning Institute, and other high quality jobs that require a strong intellectual mind. And you're denigrating their experience?</p>

<p>So, on the one hand, you only want veterans who can prove that they are able to manage academically, but, on the other, you'd prefer veterans from non-desk jobs which are more typically comprised of soldiers who are less intelligent Which is it? Or maybe you just shouldn't speak of things of which you have no idea.</p>

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<p>Jay,</p>

<p>Thanks for your responses.</p>

<p>"The problem I was pointing out is that the setting in which the SATs are conducted (many times) is inappropriate for someone my age."</p>

<p>There are SAT tutors who take the test every year or so just to prove to their students they can still do it. If you don't let yourself be "humiliated" you won't be.</p>

<p>"If there was a place around here where I could have taken the test with other adults, I wouldn't of had a problem with it."</p>

<p>When you get into college, I hope they let you take your exams in a room away from those 18 year old children taking the same classes as you.</p>

<p>"Numerous studies and research have been done to show that SAT scores do not necessarily predict success in college as noted by articles like this: "</p>

<p>If you are getting, say, 400's it predicts you are gonna fail at college.</p>

<p>"I take it you're very proud of your accomplishments while in high school. Good for you."</p>

<p>No, I wasn't big on ECs at high school. And I do have combat military experience, in another era and another place, I think it is unpleasant and not particularly desirable.</p>

<p>My point still stands, completing 5 years in the military is not difficult or demanding. Being a super-achiever in something competitive at high school is difficult.</p>

<p>"Oddly enough, we rarely use military acronyms anymore." .......
.......
....."Every MOS in the Army has a GT qualifier. "GT" is a composite score taken from a soldier's ASVAB and is the Army's equivalent of an IQ Score. Many of these desk jobs require the highest GT scores, compared to combat arms MOS' " </p>

<p>blah blah blah spouts acronyms as soon as he gets the chance ....</p>

<p>"Some of these soldiers, at 18 years old, have sat in meetings with Iraqi diplomats, government officials, Generals, "</p>

<p>Well, I did watch Slumdog Millionaire and they use the job title "chai wallah" ....</p>

<p>"You'd prefer veterans from non-desk jobs which are more typically comprised of soldiers who are less intelligent Which is it? Or maybe you just shouldn't speak of things of which you have no idea."</p>

<p>To me, the desk-job experience of a veteran is no better than any other 5 years employment, whether in a daycare center or an auto shop.</p>

<p>Now, stereotyping the combat soldiers as less intelligent aside, I would prefer an intelligent combat soldier over an equally intelligent non-combat soldier (desk wallah) who thinks doing photocopying for the military should give them some special entitlement throughout life. I mean, be serious, going to an Ivy with the 'special insights' of a 'Marine Corps veteran' who worked in a recruiting office in Manhattan just isn't 'compelling'.</p>

<p>But, Jay, you are obviously intelligent and qualified, unlike many others, and you are sure to get some good offers.</p>

13

<p>jaykob,
Have you looked into Dartmouth yet? I don't believe it's been mentioned on this thread yet that one of the lobbyists for the yellow ribbon program of the new GI Bill is the current President of Dartmouth. I don't know if you qualify for the new GI Bill or not but you can count on getting a free education at Dartmouth if you do. Not to mention all the great things I hear about it.</p>

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<p>kplanders,</p>

<p>I've been accepted to Columbia GS and I'm waiting to hear back from Amherst College. If Amherst gives me the green light I'll probably end up there.</p>

15

<p>kplanders and jaykob,</p>

<p>Dartmouth President James Wright worked with the American Council on Education and senator Webb (The driving force behind the post 9/11 GI-Bill) just finished his tenure. The new President was a Harvard professor and worked at World Health Organization. One of the reasons I applied to Dartmouth was because of Wright's dedication to recruiting veterans, which is reported in several student news articles. I also was interested in the Dartmouth Undergraduate Veterans Association (DUVA), but have been unable to contact them.</p>

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<p>jaykob,</p>

<p>Thanks for mentioning UC Berkeley. I am both a veteran and current student at Berkeley and I must say that there is an amazing program for veterans set up at this campus. My favorite part of this system in particular is priority registration on day one for every semester you are here.</p>

<p>I hear what you are saying about high school students. I notice it more though amongst the 20 year olds and what not around campus. They try and pad their resume for grad/law/medical school with so many EC's that it just makes your eyes glaze over when you see their list. Meanwhile, in almost every single case, any veteran has displayed more leadership in one day on duty than a typical college student does in four years as "president of <strong><em>" or "treasurer of _</em></strong>_", student senator, etc. </p>

<p>My point is not to disparage these students. They do need to expand themselves (even if a lot of it is overachieving, butt kissing, and done simply for a resume'). The point is that we have so much going for us as veterans that it is truly up to us to let it be known and sell ourselves to admissions. With all the true leadership and life experience we have under our belts it's not hard.</p>

<p>Good luck to you. I wish you the best!</p>

17

<p>Any other good schools that are military friendly(tuition wise, and getting in too)?</p>

<p>I'm thinking about joining the military after H.S. I'm thinking either the Coast Guard, Navy or Marines. I've got the stats to go to a good school out of H.S. (4.2W GPA, 3.85UW GPA, working on SAT/ACT, Eagle Scout, etc...). But I'd still like to enlist out H.S. I'd eventually like to become an officer, so I'm wondering if I'd be better off going to college first. But if I'd join the Marines, I'd guess I'd have some great essay opportunities.</p>

<p>Oh, and what is it like being a vet, who is 22 years old and has combat experience, going to school as a freshmen with 18 year old kids? How weird will it be? </p>

<p>Thanks</p>

18

<p>coolege,</p>

<p>I had the same dilemma as you before I enlisted in the Marines. As a soon to be veteran that's about to get out and go to school I can say that I wouldn't do it any other way. But keep in mind that is very easy to say now that is over. Here are some pro's and con's I've encountered that might be able to help you.</p>

<p>Pros:
-Steady paycheck and all the benefits
-A great feeling of accomplishment (depending on what job you choose of course)
-You get to experience Marine Corps boot camp - this will be the #1 con by a mile while you're going through it of course
-You can see some cool places, even though you will be working your ass off while you're there probably
-An unbelievably good new GI Bill for when you get out and go to school
-You'll make some good friends from all over the country, trust me that will come in handy later in life.</p>

<p>Cons:
-Leaving your family and friends behind, this was very hard for me during the first year or two
-Working hard for long hours is my situation but it can vary
-You will be getting a fraction of the amount of girls your college friends get. You will soon learn that girls in military towns tend to avoid military guys. But when you go back home it's a totally different story,
-If you hate it TOO BAD! You're stuck for 4 years-The #1 thing people who enlist are most naive about in my opinion. They own you.</p>

<p>Now, if your set on becoming an officer, definitely DO NOT enlist. There are officer programs for enlisted personnel but you have to first qualify and then have it approved by your command. Go to college, get ANY degree and then go to officer school, you can become a pilot that way also if you didnt know.</p>

19

<p>Coollege- Have you considered applying to the Naval Academy, Air Force Academy, or West Point (USMA)? You would have college plus military training, graduate with a Bachelor's degree and be commissioned as an officer at the same time. </p>

<p>ROTC programs at universities also offer the college and military experiences and can pay all your tuition, plus a monthly stipend, if you are academically qualified. (You will owe 4 years active and 4 years reserve.)</p>

20

<p>Coollege
I agree with fauve. Military Academy would be your best bet if you are “academically qualified.” You will get experience like no one else would experience at your age. Enlisting is not a bad idea if you get into special program. I used to be a Navy Information Systems Techinician who deals with national security and gets rapid promotion benefit. I’ve seen some smart enlistees who made E-5 before 3-year of their time in the military. Navy offers SEAL, Nuclear engineer, Intel, ITs and so forth to those who are academically/physically qualified. I also believe other branches do the similar thing. If I can go back 4 years back when I joined the Navy, I would want to try to be a Navy SEAL (because they are sick!) By the way, I heard that about only one third of wannabe SEAL quit or get disqualified before they complete their initial training.</p>