A "new" approach to evaluating colleges

Parents Forum
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<p>I was going through the web site of the Chronicle of Higher Education
<a href="http://chronicle.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/&lt;/a>, when I noticed that they have a data base for faculty salaries. If you subscribe to the Chronicle, you can access their data base.</p>

<p>They list the faculty salaries for many public and private schools and catagorize these by those that give master's degrees, doctorate granting institutions, colleges without graduate schools and AA schools. These are generally sorted by state. </p>

<p>Examining these salaries for professors, associate professors and assistant professors may well give an indication of the quality of the faculty. For example, if a school has higher pay than its equivalent competition, they may well get better, more well known faculty members. Obviously, this isn't an exact tool and may not be an exact correlation with quality. However, I believe that it does have some correlation with faculty quality.</p>

<p>Schools that we would think are very top notch, may not be as good as we thought. For example, Syracuse University, which is a top 50 ranked institution by US News lags behind greatly in top faculty salaries when compared to their counterparts.</p>

<p>Elon, who seems to be an "in school," also pays its faculty badly. RIT and Villanova seems to have among the top pay for professors and associate professors for their category ( school with masters offerings). In fact, even though both RIT and Villanova are in a smaller "masters only" category than that of Syracuse ( doctorate granting institutions), both RIT and Villanova pay better than Syracuse.</p>

<p>Another example that I researched was University of Maryland vs. Towson University. Even though these are both Maryland State schools, UMD pays its faculty substantially higher than that of Towson, which I found a bit disconcerting, having a son at Towson.</p>

<p>This post is NOT to slam Syracuse University or praise RIT and Villanova, and Maryland.I just wanted everyone to consider faculty salaries as an indicator of potential quality.</p>

<p>Also, if you subscribe to the Chronicle of Higher Education, do check out their data base on endowments. You would be surprised how much some schools have in endowed assets and how little others have.</p>

<p>For example, one parent was raving about Lenoir-Rhyne. However, when you check out their endowments, their endowments are miniscule. I do know that the amount of endowed assets shouldn't be the end all in determining quality.
However. this also is a good indicator of at least one factor that makes up quality.</p>

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<p>"Schools that we would think are very top notch, may not be as good as we thought. For example, Syracuse University, which is a top 50 ranked institution by US News lags behind greatly in top faculty salaries when compared to their counterparts."</p>

<p>Not sure how you're making the comparison, but part of the comparison has to be connected with cost of living. The cost of living in Syracuse is well below the cost of living in many areas of the country where one might find colleges similarly ranked with Syracuse.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, no doubt there is truth to what you are saying. However, Syracuse has a much lower average salary for professors and associate professors for their class when compared to other similarly situated schools in the same classification. Moreover, RIT,which isn't far from Syracuse, pays a lot better. </p>

<p>I am not stating that faculty pay is the be all and end all. However, it may be just another factor to consider.</p>

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<p>Cost of living is a big factor with places like Elon or Lenoir Rhyne!</p>

<p>Another important factor would the presence of professional schools and other higher-paying fields. While AAUP leaves out medical professors, presumably high-paying fields like Law and Business are included.</p>

<p>Two institutions may pay their faculty pretty equally across like departments, but if one has a law school, that will drag its average up. RIT, for example, is paying (presumably) more engineering and computer science faculty than Syracuse is.</p>

<p>Benefits are another way colleges sometimes make up the pay gap. There was a great article on tuition waivers a few months ago--that wouldn't benefit all professors, but some of those with school-age offspring mentioned that no competitor with better salaries could lure them away given the value of the tuition waiver.</p>

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<p>Taxguy, One thing that I think needs to be considered when comparing Towson to UMD is that one is a research based school. The professors at UMD may have to perform by doing research and getting their research published in professional journals. Then they need to present their research to their peers. I don't think professors at teaching focused schools are required to do as much research.</p>

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<p>TaxGuy:
Just to play devil's advocate here :), you could also make the counter-argument that 'prestigious' universities don't need to pay their faculty all that much - the prestige of working at such a hallowed place is itself part of the compensation...</p>

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<p>there are other things besides prestige though- like the town.
a couple we know who for many years taught at Ann Arbor, both transferred to NYU, because while they liked Ann Arbor, it really couldn't compare to NYC.</p>

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<p>Tech institutes have a high percentage of math, engineering and computer faculty. Those professions earn more in the outside world, so academic salaries have to be reasonably competitive.</p>

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<p>OPtimizerdad notes,"
Just to play devil's advocate here , you could also make the counter-argument that 'prestigious' universities don't need to pay their faculty all that much - the prestige of working at such a hallowed place is itself part of the compensation"</p>

<p>Response: Actually, I did check out some of the more prestigious universities such as all the ivys, Williams, etc. Generally, they pay their faculty among the best in the nation.</p>

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<p>Here's another salary link. I couldn't open the Chronicle one. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/workplace/2005/04/25/pay%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/workplace/2005/04/25/pay&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>This link will take you to the sortable database of salaries from the AAUP survey.</p>

<p>There are search boxes that let you enter the year, the type of school, etc. Then, the lists are sortable by clicking on a heading. This specific link is for baccalaureat colleges, 2004-05 sorting in descending order by full professor salary.</p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/stats/aaup/aaupresults.php?Year=2005&State_Type=All%20states&Category_type=IIB&Sort=PR_no&Unranked=0%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/stats/aaup/aaupresults.php?Year=2005&State_Type=All%20states&Category_type=IIB&Sort=PR_no&Unranked=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A few notes. This data includes all professors except med school. So at reasearch universities, you aren't comparing the same thing as at an undergrad only school. For example, Alan Dershowitz and all Law School profs are included in Harvard's numbers. You are also including research positions that are funded, in part, by revenue-generating endeavors. For example, the "professors" who developed the drug patent Emory just sold for half a billion make a nice chunk of change for jobs that probably don't involve even seeing an undergrad student, let alone teaching one.</p>

<p>The numbers also don't include sabbatical leave policies which vary considerably and can easily add 15% to these numbers. For example, Swarthmore's leave policy is guaranteed full salary/benefits for one semester sabbatical after every three years of teaching, with additional endowment grants to turn that into a full year paid sabbatical.</p>

<p>As is the case with just about everything else, follow the money. The schools with the largest endowments have great faculties because they pay the most.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad makes some good points. Surveys of prof salaries can be very misleading. At a research university with several professional schools, the survey lumps together profs of equal rank from different disciplines and different schools (law, business, faculty of arts and sciences). Even within the same faculty of arts and sciences, there can be significant differences among departments (economics vs. English, for instance). Some universities are known to go after star professors and pay them huge salaries, way out of line from the rest of their faculty.
Finally, public universities pay far less well than top private universities, but they attract profs from the same program. One anecdote: I know two people who received their Ph.D.s in the same discipline, the same year, at the same university. They began their teaching careers at the same private university. One stayed on and eventually received tenure. The other went to a public university then moved to another one for higher pay (and better students and working conditions). He currently makes half what his former colleague makes at the private university. Their discrepant salaries say nothing about the quality of their training, research and teaching.</p>

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<p>Cost of Living differences are a huge factor here, not to be ignored IMO.</p>

<p>This came up before, here
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=86233%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=86233&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Also, don't forget cost of living!</p>

<p>And the inclusion of professional schools and other expensive programs!</p>

<p>And other perks!</p>

<p>And possible funding of salaries by research dollars!</p>

<p>Did I mention cost of living?</p>

<p>You might try looking in an publication called the Chronicle of Higher Education for data, too.</p>

<p>There's also cost of living. </p>

<p>Thanks, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your waitresses!</p>

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<p>Taxguy says a parent was raving about this school.</p>

<p>Why? Their SAT range is 973-1163; they accept just about everyone who applies ("1,417 applied, 1,217 acepted"), a mere 18% of students were in the top 10% of their high school class - and they are not drawing from blue-ribbon high schools! - and I thought it was primarily a vocational school. </p>

<p>However, the school is a great match for the student whose parent wrote the report.</p>

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<p>LOL, I guess NEDAD has a case of "foot in mouth disease." </p>

<p>The points that faculty salaries need to be considered with cost of living is certainly valid. There can be no doubt that faculty choose to teach at schools for varied reasons such as geographic location, weather and salaries. However, generally the better schools do pay the higher salaries. Likewise, some schools have similar cost of living structures. Thus, UMD, who pays their faculty over 30% more than that of Towson University, may be the better school for a number of majors. However, maybe there is bias in that the engineering professors may be better paid. Towson doesn't have engineering.</p>

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<p>Taxguy:</p>

<p>I would suggest that higher salaries reflect higher cost of living and more resources generally. The cost of living does not affect the quality of teaching, but the greater resources do. If you look at where people got their Ph.D.s, chances are that there is not that much difference between profs at different universities with different salary scales, as per my anecdote.</p>

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<p>I forgot to mention startup packages, another serious inducement in prize faculty recruitment that wouldn't be reflected in salary. Of course, a university needs money/resources for those, but if they target them to certain areas (like the life sciences) they can make big changes in faculty prestige and quality, without necessarily making big changes campuswide or needing deep pockets. There are lots of examples of mid-range universities who have decided to pour resources in a few select areas (often in a declared bid to raise their research ranking). </p>

<p>GA Tech (not a mid-range university! Different point being illustrated, here!) almost was successful in luring away one of our top chemical engineers. It wasn't a big salary differential, but how that salary was structured and funded and how he would be spending his summers made a big difference to him (whether he had to get some of that salary via grants, or not). All this to say there are many little things that go into faculty employment decisions, and many things which are not captured by the numbers.</p>

<p>I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that an associate professor earning $72,000 is going to be a better teacher, mentor, and advisor than the one being paid $71,000. You'd still find me skeptical as the gap grew and we were comparing the $72K assoc. prof to one earning $65K. If I liked two schools equally and felt they were of equal quality, I wouldn't use a small salary difference to tip my enrollment decision in some belief that this indicated that one school (or its faculty) were somehow better.</p>

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<p>If it takes money to lure a teacher I already have misgivings about his or her commitment and ability. Many Ph.D.'s are just happy to find a position considering the glut of applicants for any particular job opening; but the best teacher I ever witnessed (Williams undergrad, Stanford grad.) continues to be undervalued by the institution at which he holds classes because he has the audacity to actually make his students THINK. The administration is a conservative body at a State U. I've witnessed teaching at some of the most prestigious campuses in this country and there is not one teacher I have ever seen that could hold a candle to this guy. What does money have to do with it?</p>

<p>On a related note, I remember sometime back when Jerry Brown, then Governor of California, tried to pass into law a provision that would make it impossible for any public employee--University of California professors and administrators included--to make a certain percentage of the governor's salary (which Brown in fact wanted to reduce). The greatest outcry of protest was from--you guessed it--those who answer to the Regents of the University of California for their paychecks. To me this continues to speak volumes about education in America. Teachers, as with doctors, should be compelled by the love that sweeps actors to the stage. And as far as endowments go, c'mon, it's not the faculty that shares the biggest piece of that pie, it's the administrators and, fortunately, on the brighter side, god willing, the students.</p>

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<p>NEDAD ~</p>

<p>I read your post on this thread (before it was modified by the Board's Moderators for inappropriate comments...and it was MUCH worse before it was edited). I am responding to your comments post-edit.</p>

<hr>

<p>I am the parent who wrote the trip report on Lenoir-Rhyne College.</p>

<p>First, I wish to ask...</p>

<p>Why can't someone rave about a college that has mid-range SATs, relatively high admit rate, and more humble (or should I normal) roots? Is the fact that this school is more inclusive a bad thing? Or are colleges and universities only for a certain stratospheric segment of our society? Comments such as the ones in your post are elitist....</p>

<p>Second, I wish to ask...</p>

<p>Are schools with stats like Lenoir-Rhyne by the very nature of these numbers lesser institutions that have less to offer their students?
I was under the impression that the process of selecting a college should be driven by the kind of person the college turns out, not by the kind of person the college takes in. Again, an elitist stance.</p>

<p>Third, I wish to ask...</p>

<p>Is my child, who will attend Lenoir-Rhyne with solid merit money and who was a nationally ranked athlete at 15 but chose academics over his sport, a lesser child because he has chosen to attend a college which you have assessed to be a lesser school? Oh, and by the way, Lenoir-Rhyne is NOT A VOCATIONAL SCHOOL (read any of the guides, the website, etc., etc., etc.). Shall I tally elitist stance 3, compassionate and thinking 0?</p>

<p>Lenoir-Rhyne College is fine institution for anyone who wishes to attend it.
It is a College of Distinction (<a href="http://www.collegesofdistinction.com)%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.collegesofdistinction.com)&lt;/a>, and a USNWR 17th ranked comprehensive bachelor's south school, etc. It has a solid reputation for enriching its students, turning out well-rounded, community-service oriented individuals with moral character. It's strength is in its humility, its offerings, and its people.</p>

<p>While I am in favor of full research and disclosure of facts when considering any college or university, I see no reason in loading these clinical numbers with hurtful and elitist assumptions.</p>

<p>If I were looking for a undergraduate college (and I'm already a GWU grad and I picked it over an Ivy) I would rather attend a college with heart and soul...that gives even the little guy a chance (who knows where someone is in their development and circumstances and what they can become in life) and who looks deeper into the person than the shallowness of scores and the packaging of personas. I'd pick Lenoir-Rhyne College in a heartbeat. That little school cares about every single person it admits. It wants each to be successful...and it's not just lip-service. Talk to any Lenoir-Rhyne grad (and I have talked to many). They all LOVE the school and what it did for them. Not just the 80-95% of those that apply that go on to professional schools (medicine, law), but the rank-and-file who contribute to our culture every day, particularly in the service professions. Not bad for a humble school. The lion (or should I say The Bear) roars!</p>