IMO, a college needs to get a good handle on what exactly the incidence of sexual assault is among their students. If they don’t, when they implement strategies that they hope will lower the rate, they won’t know whether they’re working.
@“Cardinal Fang” exactly right. Schools need the best data they can get, or they won’t even know how to design a program to address the problem as it exists. I think they call that garbage in, garbage out.
Moreover, I’d argue that if the college rape rate for women is truly 2 per thousand per year, as the BJS statistics say, that demands a different response than a rate of around 100 per thousand per year, as some of the others say.
Would the fact that there are less rapes per any given number of people make the crime any less heinous? I would think not, but I guess some might not agree.
Wouldn’t make it differently heinous, but it would certainly mean that the reaction would have to be differently fashioned, I’d think.
“IMO, a college needs to get a good handle on what exactly the incidence of sexual assault is among their students. If they don’t, when they implement strategies that they hope will lower the rate, they won’t know whether they’re working.”
As long as the measure is steady, it should still track changes. Let’s say a survey results in underreports by 50%. Keep using it, and you’ll see rises and drops just fine.
What colleges can do is crack down hard on underage drinking and call the police if they suspect a student of felony criminal behavior. “Excusing” or "excluding’ the alcohol with underage students is not helping the problem. And I agree with Hanna that it is less important to track the numbers and more important to track the delta.
Don’t you mean it’s less important to track the sigma and more important to track the delta? 
That’s true if the survey is more or less in the ballpark of the correct number, but we’re talking here about numbers that differ by 5000%. If your survey number differs from the real number by a factor of 50, your survey (if too low) is missing almost everything you’re trying to measure or (if too high) is reporting almost entirely spurious data. In that case, the survey isn’t telling you anything about the world, and there’s no particular reason to think it would track changes in the real world.
“numbers that differ by 5000%”
The school survey numbers don’t, if I’m reading correctly. The police numbers do.
The school surveys are asking different questions than the crime statistics. Hyperbole aside, the difficult work is trying to figure out how broadly you can define the questions you ask to address non reported or borderline criminal activity that can be corrected/disciplined, while at the same time being specific enough that you are not getting data about things which are immaterial.
@Ohiodad51, The Bureau of Justice Statistics’ mandate is to measure criminal activity, not just criminal activity that can be corrected/disciplined. If someone was forcibly raped, that’s a crime, even if it would be difficult to prosecute in a court of law.
@Hanna, as long as administrators acknowledge that the BJS statistics are as bogus as Lance Armstrong’s doping denials, one school survey is probably as good as another as far as measuring progress. I was reacting to some dead-enders on this thread who still cling to the BJS statistics.
@“Cardinal Fang” to me criminal activity is definitionally conduct that can be corrected/disciplined, whereas regrettable drunk sex, or sex that is the result of non physical persuasion, is a much more amorphous area.
More specifically, and put another way, violent rape is in no way borderline criminal activity, but the line between drunk regrettable sex and so drunk as to not be able to effectively consent to sex is.
@Ohiodad51, Even if you ignore ALL reports of incapacitated rape, there is ample evidence that the BJS statistics are undercounting forcible rape. You would agree, I’m sure, that vaginal, oral, or anal penetration using threats of violence or use of physical force is rape, is a crime, and should be counted in the statistics. And the BJS statistics seem to be drastically undercounting that crime.
Yep. I don’t disagree with that as long as you add the language “with a sex organ or inanimate object” or some such… . Otherwise, if I grab my wife by the arms and give her an unwanted french kiss then under your definition above that conduct is arguably rape, being oral penetration (french kiss) using physical force (grabbing her arms). Boorish behavior? Maybe, sure. But not rape. Probably not even criminal conduct, although it may be sexual battery or some such, depending on the vagaries of each individual state. I know that many think that is a foolish example, but I think you would have to agree that using the literal meaning of the words written above, the conduct fits. Obviously, the survey questions are not designed to capture that type of data, but rather are likely designed to capture “digital insertion”, but you are going to get some white noise in that data when you draft the question so broadly, and people should acknowledge it.
My overarching point is the response to the hypothetical situation I described with my wife is reasonably different than if I held a woman down and forced my attentions on her. In the first case, an apology and some type of education/counseling may be the right response. In the second, throw the guy out and call the cops.
In case this hasn’t been clear enough, I do not dispute that the traditional ways of gathering statistics are very problematic for sexual assault. Generally, if you are robbed you will report it. Acquaintance rape, even if it is a clear case, maybe not. My beef is with the other side of the equation, and specifically taking survey data that is designed to be broad and then using the results as evidence of the most egregious examples. More specifically to college, I can understand a freshman girl being plied with strong drink by an upperclassman with the intent of getting her drunk enough to have sex. I think that this happens way more frequently than people are comfortably willing to admit (as the father of a daughter who is beginning to lose hope that his little girl is headed to the convent I can relate) and also that at some point feeding a girl a couple beers to get her tipsy enough to lower her inhibitions turns very quickly into an attempt to get her drunk enough that she can’t think effectively. To me, that is the real heart of the situation, how do you find the line between three drinks and four lets say, and what can and should be done about it?
I think, but am not sure, that the BJS statistics also exclude unreported cases, right? If true, that is another variable, and probably a big one.
I don’t think we have a disagreement about forced oral sex, then. The questionnaire in the Brown/Syracuse study asked about forced oral sex, but not any other kind of oral penetration. So a French kiss would not qualify. Let me give you the exact words:
I’m confident we’re in agreement that this is rape (or whatever name the crime is known by in your jurisdiction). And I’m confident we’re in agreement that if we’re compiling rape statistics, crimes of this nature should be counted.
That is incorrect. The BJS statistics are supposed to include all instances of the crimes measured, not just the ones reported to the authorities. The survey asks if the respondent has been the victim of , and then whether the respondent reported it. So for example it is supposed to count up all the muggings, purse snatchings and petty thefts, even if the victim didn’t think it worthwhile to go to the police. And the same for sexual assault-- it is supposed to count up all the sexual assaults, including the ones not reported to the police.
About a year ago on a different thread (with the same rhetoric) northwesty called me the “worst parent ever” for sending my daughter to a college that reported similar rape and assault numbers to all these other colleges.
Anyone with a daughter headed this fall to Syracuse, MIT, Princeton, Geneseo, Oregon, Cal Poly or Harvard, is welcome to this year’s title but you will have to make your own sash and crown.
Isn’t that why many of us are so active on these threads? My D will be attending one of those schools in the Fall and I don’t like the numbers either. I am not accepting any “worst parent ever” title as my attempts to educate myself and my D is nothing short of a labor of love.
And obviously we have no particular reason to believe the named schools are uniquely bad. Is Yale less rapey than Harvard or Princeton? Is Santa Clara less rapey than Cal Poly? Is Boston University less rapey than Syracuse? Doubtful. It’s just that we have the survey results for some schools, and not others. All the survey results from schools are bad.
“About a year ago on a different thread (with the same rhetoric) northwesty called me the “worst parent ever” for sending my daughter to a college that reported similar rape and assault numbers to all these other colleges.”
A friend is sending a daughter off to Syracuse in the fall. So I think he will now hold that title. I’ll make sure to mention to him that his kid has a 12.3% chance of being raped (actual rape – not attempted rape and not unwanted sexual advance, but raped) during her first year.
Honest question. If you actually believed such a number, would you send your kid to such school? I absolutely would not.
But I’d send my kid to Syracuse (like my friend) with a clear conscience because I know that number is ridiculously over-stated. Also, I know that my kid’s risk will drop to almost zero if I can get her to do a few simple things. Have a buddy. Stay away from hard alcohol (especially during first semester). If anyone messes with you, make a lot of noise.
I would not take any comfort at all in the what kind of adjudicatory process Syracuse may or may not have. That won’t do squat for my kid.