While they don’t explicitly define attempted rape, like they do completed rape; I’d assume that their definition of “rape” is consistent between completed and attempted, rather than assuming that they change their definition of “rape” such that attempted does not require force/incapacitation. Had they changed the definition, then we’d expected to see a much higher attempted/completed ratio that other surveys, which isn’t present.
I have a question. Are all rapes equal? In my mind they aren’t. Before the broadened definitions I would have probably agreed that they were. We have Capital Murder, 1st degree, 2nd degree etc. We even have manslaughter to account for intent. Shouldn’t every jurisdiction have the same for rape/sexual assault? I know some already do.
Let me also be clear that I think somewhat broadened definitions were badly needed. Spousal rape is the most vivid example, but there are plenty of others (including anal, etc).
Nobody really commented on my earlier hypothetical about 3rd base. I will also add that this is not only very plausible but very common. A young man is making out with a very willing woman. Let’s even say she told him that she wanted to “hook up” with him but did not want to have sex. He has gotten to 2nd and she is very enthusiastic. She might even be groping him through his pants. He then tries to get to 3rd and she says she is not ready for that and did not want that. She is a not happy because she told him she didn’t want to have sex and to her that is a form of sex. He thought she meant intercourse.
When the time comes to fill out these surveys she will almost certainly answer yes to the question of whether anyone has even penetrated you either digitally without your permission.
How many of you feel the woman was raped? If your answer is yes, does he deserve the same punishment as someone who drugs their victim and has sex with them? The same as a rapist who threatens someone at knife point?
@Data10 Maybe, but I would think that someone publishing a paper would be very specific in what they did and did not include. They were very specific regarding completed rapes, why not attempted? In every case where they used the same methodology they used the term AR/CR, leaving the AR out makes me think they include the coercion aspect (but then again, maybe that is just the scientist in me who takes everything literally).
We don’t have to argue about the exact definition. I emailed the study author. She said she’s traveling but she’ll get back to me. We don’t have read the tea leaves when we can find the answer out by asking for clarification.
^^once again, thanks for the research.
So who is going to change his or her mind based on what the author says?
How many surveys do we need for somebody to change his or her mind?
Data10, I appreciate your posts.
IMO the guy has done something wrong; he penetrated her without her consent, and this is a serious matter. He should have asked first. But I agree with you that this is clearly less serious, much less serious, than raping a woman at knifepoint, or drugging a woman and raping her. This is no different than other crimes. There are always circumstances that can make the crime more or less bad.
@Cardinal Fang So if you had a son that did that you would want/expect him to go to prison.
I am baffled by this obsession with “bases” and French kissing as if it is 1954. There weren’t even “bases” anymore when I was in college and I’m not convinced that young people today parse things in that way with some strictly defined stage of contact or sexual interaction. Maybe that’s part of the problem. Maybe the male brain can’t understand nuance and female choices that aren’t strictly segregated to predetermined sets of allowable activities. Who gets to decide what is constitutes “2nd base” or “3rd base”? Do guys actually believe that there is some set of activities that they can bundle together and call one stage of sexual involvement? Does anyone think that if she let me do X then Y must be OK because they all fall under the heading of “3rd base” or “half way to home” or whatever?
As phrased, this is unnecessarily provocative, particularly since there are a couple of unwarranted presuppositions here (e.g., that Cardinal Fang considers prison the correct intervention for any felony sexual assault).
Has anyone noted the irony that certain posters claims that the rape rates can certainly never be that high or else parents surely would not send their daughters to that college (or any coed college, since they seem roughly that high everywhere) yet they steadfastly refuse to believe rape rates are that high (or anything beyond minuscule) despite whatever evidence is shown to them, so it seems likely that they would keep sending their daughters to that college (and other colleges) regardless of how horrifyingly high the rape rate actually is?
Me too. I was sexually active before I married, and I never, ever heard anyone, male or female, talk about “bases.” The only way I’m familiar with this concept is from fiction that takes place in the 50s, and before this thread, I had no idea what “3rd base” was. The whole concept sounds like it comes from notion of women as objects to be defeated in some real-world version of a video game.
@Saintfan I used the “bases” definition because that is what was used earlier. It is also something it is easy to understand and articulate without having to constantly use graphic language which some might find offensive. I don’t quite follow the rest of your post but I will just address the last sentence. My guess is that if a male had a female who was passionately engaged it kissing, groping, etc that they would indeed think it was ok to grope the woman if she had started groping him first, even if she was outside his clothing.
This is why we need to educate men (and women) not to stick fingers in someone without consent. I guess it is necessary to teach a new norm, that it is not okay.
The bases idea to me is part of the whole concept that men “win” when women “give in.” That’s just offensive.
I grew up in the 60s and 70s and that is the only term I have ever heard used, ever, by anyone, ever.
I just decided to look the phrases up on the internet and it appears those terms are still the ones that are used by many kids. Google it and you will find many references from kids asking what it means (Ask Alice, for example).
Apparently even academics/authors use it.
[quote]
Educators have found the baseball metaphor an effective instructional tool when providing sex education to middle school students.[8] Levin and Bell, in their book A Chicken’s Guide to Talking Turkey With Your Kids About Sex, make use of it to aid parents in the discussion of puberty with their children, dividing the topics into “first base” (“Changes from the neck up”), “second base” (“Changes from the neck to the waist”), “third base” (“Changes from the waist down”), and “home plate” (“The Big ‘It’”).[9]
I don’t even know how to respond to the comment about women as objects and video games.
Did you ever notice, @TV4caster, that only men, not women, get to bases? Men are the players, and women are the objects.
Someone from Team A tries to make a base. Someone from Team B tries to keep him off the base. It’s adversarial.
It is a really really bad metaphor for sex. I don’t care if some educators like it.
If anyone asked me to how to talk to middle schoolers about sex, number one on my list would be to tell them the most important thing is respect and consideration for your partner.
We were talking about penetration, right? Now that I looked up “third base,” it doesn’t seem like it means insertion of a finger in the vagina. It’s not penetration at all. Touching a woman’s genitals is not rape by the definitions we’ve been talking about.
Definitions will vary. Ha. The definition of my youth was a finger in the vagina, as well as touching. Could be either.
I lived in an old fashioned culture, so I lived this base idea.
I would not send my daughter to any place where I thought there would be a 12% chance that she would be raped in the next year. If I thought that was actually her risk profile in a co-ed college, I’d send her to an all-girls school. So would anyone else who thought about it.
If your son was unfortunate enough to be sent away to prison, you would be terrified of him being raped while incarcerated. I’ve seen stats that indicate a likelihood of being raped in prison at about 3-4% per year. Horrible and very scary.
At some point, folks, you just have to apply some common sense.