I guess the common notion is that men are more likely to rape women than vice versa (in the forced, full penetration in some way sense, not stopping at fondling) because men are often stronger than women. When it gets to the questionable fondling/insertion of things like fingers, stuff of that nature, that can clearly be done by either gender. Whether that is “rape” or not seems to be the question? And if it is (or is at least sexual assault or harassment when done without consent) then women can be just as culpable for creating those situations, and if she was groping or penetrating without consent or after the male had said no, then she could be accused of something rape-ish, if not full blown rape. I think there’s sort of an “ooh, lucky him” attitude if a girl wants sexual behavior while from a guy-wanting-sexual-behavior-from-a-girl perspective, it’s more “ho hum, a guy wants sex, what’s new.” I could be wrong though.
Another thing colleges should do is survey the males. That would be an interesting discussion.
The Syracuse/Brown survey was only given to women, but usually they’re given to both genders. For example, the Cal Poly survey was given to both genders, and I think the Princeton, Harvard and MIT surveys were also given to both genders. Men get raped too, but typically the self-reported rape rate for men is much lower than for women.
^^^ I would guess that to be the case with the reporting. I bet that most men that would report rape at all, if they did, would probably report being raped by another man, not groped by some drunk girl at a party. But that’s just a guess.
@Cardinal Fang I could not find the link to the actual questions from the survey. I did find the link to the actual questions in the MIT survey and they simply asked to check the appropriate boxes.
There is nothing about force or coercion etc. That is what I am talking about when I say that some of these statistics can include the types of hypotheticals that I have been referring to.
I would think you could argue that groping can be rape. Here is why: some of the definitions I have read include not only the verbiage that people have quoted about “the penetration of the vagina, etc”, but specific wording to the effect of “the penetration, even by a fraction of a millimeter, of the vagina, etc”. It is awfully hard not to get at least a fraction of a millimeter past the labia majora or minor when you come in contact with the area.
Rape is, as it's generally defined, a specific type of sexual assault. The attempt to determine whether a particular type of sexual assault is rape or not is actually kind of pointless to the conversation.
How did this discussion of the prevalence of sexual assaults on college campuses get derailed into a definition war?
I find the definition war more interesting than the endless circles about assigning responsibility for hypothetical situations without blaming the hypothetical victim for the hypothetical rape. As we don’t know the story behind each and every answer to the survey, we can only guess what and who these women were referring to based of our own experiences and biases.
And what is “it”? Digital insertion? Skin on skin contact with genitaliia? How far do you have to go before there is an attempt? Unbuttoning pants? Removing panties? Where in the questions you have cited does it make any of those distinctions?** Where are the survey questions asking about whether the guy thought the advance was welcome?**
**Where is the explicit distinction that a woman objected to an act but the objection was not respected? **At what point in the process does a successful objection stop a potential rape but still remain an attempt?
And what I am saying is that the cited studies seem to capture a ton of interactions which are not in any way criminal, but yet the findings of these surveys are trumpeted as evidence that violent rape is a commonplace occurrence.
The reprehensible conduct is easy. No one in their right mind would argue that the Steubenville case was not rape**. But it is equally wrong to conflate those situations with a 17 year old trying to see how far he can get with his girlfriend.**
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It seems to me the discussion has circled back to the idea bodies are available for touching until the owner says “no.”
I do think definitions and language shape how we view the world and would like to get rid of the idea *“a 17 year old trying to see how far he can get with his girlfriend”/i is a norm. I want to teach our kids better than that, that it isn’t about what “I” can get, but what “you” want and what will bring pleasure to us both.
I certainly won’t argue my feminism is of the bubble gum variety. Sadly, some of the intellectuals left the discussion last fall.
I really appreciate dfbdfb’s efforts to make this, as much as possible, a non-gendered conversation.
“How far a 17 y.ol can get:” back in the good old 60’s I was bruised by such a boyfriend (he was a little older) and a sister had her finger broken on a date by such a guy (a little older). There is nothing cute, normal, or benign about “how far one can get.” If the partner doesn’t want it, it is assault. In fact, the whole idea of “how far” argues for the need of affirmation to proceed.
Then there is no point to any of these discussions or surveys, let alone campus sexual assault policies, because the only salient fact is what each individual woman decides in the moment. See what I mean? And you are right, the “bubble gum feminism” was a cheap shot. Apologies.
I think I have consistently said that there is and should be a distinction between boorish and felonious behavior. I would hope you would agree that there is a difference between a waitress getting her butt pinched during her shift and then being held down and forcibly penetrated with a man’s )*&^() in the alley after her shift. Solutions to one of those situations are not going to be effective in addressing the other.
One major problem is that we are using terms from the criminal law and stretching them to cover wider areas of conduct. It doesn’t really matter whether you call forcible penetration with a sex organ rape, sexual battery, gross sexual imposition, or balloon day. We can all agree that conduct is reprehensible and worthy of sanction. The issue is that as we talk about sexual assault in broader and broader terms we approach areas where conduct that many of us do not believe is assault is captured. For instance, if I grab my wife’s butt when I kiss her when I come home tonight, and she had a bad day at work and is not in the mood for intimacy, is that sexual assault? Now I hope most of us would say of course it isn’t, but it would be an unwelcome sexual advance under the definitions that are out there. If she then takes a survey about women’s health and one of the questions says how many times (not does it happen, how many times does it happen) does your partner attempt or initiate intimate contact without your consent and she answers a couple times a month, does she now count for 24 rapes in the survey? How would that be in any way helpful to anything?
Someone on this very thread (or the Columbia one) said most or many men will rape if given the chance. So I don’t think it is fair to say TV4caste is making things up.
Here in Ohio it is called gross sexual imposition, and requires (if I remember correctly) the offender to have or cause “sexual contact” with another. I would be surprised if most jurisdictions are not the same or very similar. Maybe a different statute than the old rape statute, but it will be in the same chapter.
And recycling material from another thread, Bucknell’s Sexual Misconduct policy proscribes “Sexual Assault: Having or attempting to have sexual intercourse, cunnilingus, or fellatio without Consent. Sexual intercourse is defined as anal or vaginal penetration by a penis, tongue, finger, or inanimate object. Non-Consensual Sexual Contact: Any intentional sexual touching, or attempted sexual touching, without Consent.” Leaving aside the Non Consensual Sexual Contact language which I think is self explanatory, nothing in the definition of Sexual Assault requires penetration. I believe it is reasonable to say a woman can attempt vaginal penetration by fondling a man’s genitalia.
I’ll be surprised if you believe each individual (male or female) in the midst of a sexual encounter, doesn’t get to decide “in the moment” whether to continue or stop. Changing minds is allowed and can be the result of all kinds of things including, perhaps, the lack of expertise of the partner. If it isn’t good, why keep going?
This point reminds me of a dispute I had with mini a couple of times. I like laws to be as precise as possible, while he thought it was OK for laws to be less precise, because prosecutors wouldn’t take the borderline cases and juries wouldn’t convict. I can see the argument, but it’s not how I’d like to see laws drafted.
Also, the point above assumes we don’t move to an “affirmative consent” approach.
I will also point out that many folks don’t seem comfortable with cases in which the accused argues that he believed he had consent because of the conduct of the accuser, but the accuser asserts incapacitation.
Sure every one gets to decide when to stop. The point is that the last action which triggers the decision to stop is not always sanctionable conduct. Look at the Bucknell policy. “Any intentional sexual touching, or attempted sexual touching without consent.” If I understand you, you are saying leave it to each individual woman to determine when an attempt to unbutton her pants is just going too far and when it is Non Consensual Touching meriting a report. I object to that. I care less in the criminal law context where the burden of proof is higher and the process is designed to ferret out and investigate all the detail. But in campus tribunals with the preponderance of the evidence standard and no or limited rights of the accused to present evidence and cross examine witnesses, I believe you set your self up for capricousness at best. And again, if asked a survey question based on those definitions where it was not clear the survey was trying to get at rape numbers, why would a woman not answer a question asking “How many times has your partner attempted to touch you in a sexual manner without your consent” regardless of whether she thought the act of unbuttoning her pants was sexual misconduct?
