@momofthreeboys, but there aren’t many reasons to make stuff up on an anonymous survey while there are many reasons why girls don’t press rape charges:
They may not consider it rape.
They may feel they were raped but feel that charges may not stick (including being drunk and not being able to recall all details).
If it isn’t stranger rape, they may not want to hurt a guy they have feelings for.
They may not want to deal with it and want to put it behind them (it takes a certain amount of fortitude and either hatred of the rapist or a belief in principle to go forward with charges).
I also find it extremely unlikely that girls who didn’t feel like they were raped go around telling friends that they were raped/violated (unless they really hate a guy, but most hatred doesn’t spring out of nowhere without a reason). Girls who regret having consensual sex with a guy tend to tell friends that they regret having consensual sex with a guy.
Hmmm. Maybe–or maybe they say they regret getting drunk and having sex with him. And then what do the friends say? I think this scenario happens as well.
@Magnetron My D attended one of the colleges whose survey is being used as a data point. Her freshman year dorm faced one of the main entrance/exits points on campus. Just outside of the gateway was fraternity row.
Her comment…I see women with short attire and no decreeable under garments. They would already be obviously intoxicated as they headed out to fraternity row and the evenings frivolities. D’s comment…(I paraphrase) yeah, they have the right to dress and drink as they please and expect/have the right not to be violated. I can also leave my wallet on the dash of my unlocked car with $100 bills visible and have the expectation/right not to be robbed. It would be stupid and self damaging behavior…but we have the right.
As for @northwesty sending his D to a high rape rate university…his (?) contention all along is that the reported number is bogus. IF they believed the number they wouldn’t send the D.
@Ohiodad51, for the various levels of murder the jury has to divine what was going on in the killer’s mind. In practice, from what I read, this decision is far from straightforward. Did the person premeditate the killing? Did the person intend to kill? Not always obvious.
Back in my day, it was supposedly a rite of passage for a guy to lose his virginity…with anyone. Perhaps today’s women want to do this too, and liquoring up makes it easier.
I’m not saying they make it up, I’m saying when they are taking a confidential survey, in their mind they may classify it that way, they may even classify it that way to friends, but when they have to tell someone in authority, out-loud and know they will be asked questions, they do not go this route. I also think most of the surveys “report high” because people will report what they think on a confidential survey and what they think might be different than what they are willing to say - out-loud, to someone who will want to verify.
It’s not mutually exclusive to have women who want to have sex and women who are sexually assaulted. Occassionally, a woman who wants to have sex is sexually assaulted.
I read some of these posts and I shake my head. Women are sexually assaulted. We know this if we listen. It’s not a secret.
#1 we are dealing with something less than violent, forcible penetration, in other words, conduct that is something less than the mental image conjured by the use of the term rape?
2 we may be dealing with an issue of consent/incapacitation
3 & #4 I think are probably large parts of underreporting, But isn't it rational to assume that the more egregious the activity, the lower the circumstance described in either #3 or #4? In other words, a woman who is suddenly and violently vaginally penetrated will be more motivated to seek redress than a woman who maybe gets her head slowly but steadily pressed towards her boyfriend's crotch until she says "damnit, I said no!" and then stops all sexual contact? We can agree that that is also something other than the classic definition of rape as well, right?
To your last paragraph, you aren’t implying that it is ok to accuse someone of rape if you don’t like them, just because you probably have a reason for that dislike, are you? I assume that isn’t the case but just found your qualifier of hate not springing out of nowhere a little jarring.
No one disputes that sexual assault occurs. That is a horse of an entirely different hue than saying 20% of all college freshmen have been raped though.
That’s actually a pretty true statement that you are dissing there dstark. Everyone here agrees that some women get raped. It’s the quantity associated with “some” that has no clear agreement. My point is women might “classify” something as sexual assault that may or may not stand the criminality test and may self-identify as a victim when they may not choose to pursue the options that are available to them for whatever reason.
Think of all the people who have their car hit by someone else - think about the percentages that don’t tell the insurance company or drivers that agree to move on and not call the police to the scene or report it because they don’t want to deal with the aftermath. Doesn’t mean the accident didn’t occur. Lots of times people are involved in things they don’t share, classify one way in their mind, would talk about anonymously but not to their co-workers or even their families.
“Do we have any information about whether allegations of assault are increasing, decreasing or staying the same at colleges?”
Well those guys from the US DOJ (but what do they know?) would tell you that overall rape incidence in the U.S. is at an all time low for college students, non-students of college age, and also for females not of college age.
While the reported levels of these US DOJ stats can be criticized, you’d think that the trend line they report should be pretty solid. Doing apples to apples over time, they find incidence is down. Actually pretty way down.
Feel quite comfortable with my kid at Tulane. Nola is a higer crime city overall. But Tulane’s neighborhood is quite safe and swanky – Archie Manning and Drew Brees live nearby. Compares quite favorably to many urban campus neighborhoods in places like DC, Philly, Chicago, LA, Baltimore, etc. Tulane offers all incoming freshman girls self-defense classes and they put a lot of emphasis on bystander/buddy programs. I think those things help. Also not a frat dominated social scene which I think also helps.
No idea how much time and effort they spend on their title IX/OCR/Dear Colleague stuff. I don’t really care about that stuff since there’s no data that suggests that helps keep kids any safer.
@“Cardinal Fang” You may be investing more uncertainty into the mens rea, or mental component,of the crime of murder than is really there. Usually there are activities which occur prior to the act which are used to establish intent, or the killing is carried out in commission of some other felony, etc. Without evidence of these other actions, the jury just can’t divine intent.
An imperfect corollary in the sexual assault arena would be did the girl dress provocatively and grind on the dance floor with some guy all night, or did the guy buy an extra bottle of booze in anticipation of getting some girl drunk and taking advantage of her, etc. All of which may explain why an event occurred but none of which are required components of the burden of proof in a sexual assault case. As I understand it, one of the challenges of trying rape/felonious sexual penetration/gross sexual imposition (to use the Ohio terminology) cases is the lack of specificity in what is being proscribed, not the converse.
Remember too that the beyond a reasonable doubt standard plays through all of this, which is another huge difference between what is going on in courtrooms and in campus tribunals, let alone in survey questions.
The survey that was the subject of the “new” study was conducted in 2010. One would hope that the subject college would have taken steps to reduce the incidence of assault there over the past 5 years.
You mean other than the title of this thread? Read the article you linked to in post #1.
OK, now I think I understand. You are using the term rape in the classically, statutorily defined sense, but are not arguing that there is no other proscribed conduct which would run afoul of the same disciplinary codes, or be felonious, etc.?
You could actually read the article. You could read the survey. You could read posts from posters like data10. Or you can continue to be wrong. Your choice.
It’s interesting how people who object to the numbers come up with falsehoods and strawman arguments.
