Yep, @northwesty, as I had mentioned before, some girls don’t count being screwed while too incapacitated to do anything as rape. Some don’t count forceable sex (in a relationship, for instance) as rape.
That still leaves, what? 8% of the girls surveyed who thought they were raped? Is that an acceptable percentage to you?
But what is the point? If a person doesn’t feel strongly enough about what happened to pursue criminal prosecution than who are we do define that experience for them. I suppose that we could demand that prosecutors prosecute on hearsay from friends, colleges or family, but what will that gain if there is not someone who is a victim… Victimless crimes are highly controversial with many people thinking they should not be criminal (prostitution comes to mind.drug use etc.). I suppose we could let prosecutors rely on police testimony coming out of their investigation if there is not “victim” but really does that serve society well?
The better solution is to work with police to take accusations seriously and at a minimum investigate the accusation and let the prosecutors take it from there. The idea is not to make survey numbers artificially high. The idea is to make the numbers match the reality.
All bets are always off as to how a jury will go. However, the penalties for sex crimes are so severe that you almost never want to try a case. As anyone who has ever represented a sex criminal defendant will tell you, everyone hates your client. Add that to the downside risk and you spend the case looking to settle. A prosecutor may not necessarily be victorious if he chooses to prosecute this case under 255-A, but if one chooses to I think there is a serious risk of criminal liability. That’s assuming the facts are as jonri stated, of course.
@momofthreeboys, there’s a difference between victimless “crimes” that are consensual and crimes that are not consensual but were not reported for whatever reason. Many girls seem to come up with all sorts of reasons for not reporting rapes. That doesn’t mean that some of them aren’t traumatized by it.
I agree that police should take accusations seriously, and the surveys would be helpful if they had something that indicated level of consent and trauma suffered. Being screwed while passed out may be deeply traumatic to one person and not much at all to another.
A deeper issue is that while our culture certainly expects guys to stand up for themselves (“tue recht und furchte niemand”, etc.), that doesn’t seem to be nearly as true for girls.
You can’t begin to make sense of Cathy Young ( born Ekaterina Jung) unless you look a little deeper. Spent her formative years in Moscow during the Brezhnev years and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in the late 80’s. Probably has somewhat of a different world view than a typical American female. I read her autobiography many moons ago in an attempt to understand how anyone could be so dismissive of all that American women have worked for in terms of achieving equality. She seems to have made a career out of that here in the U.S.
Most savvy people can take a step back and see quite clearly what she does – hitches her cart to whatever political horse she thinks can take her the most distance. She attacks “traditional” feminism, writes anti-Russia opinion pieces and most recently is involved in some sort of imbroglio with the anti-jihadists. She has plenty of detractors in all those quarters who all seem to accuse her of the same thing - misrepresenting the facts or conveniently omitting things that do not fit her narrative.
I stopped reading anything she writes years ago.
I think most of us women that grew up in the 60s and 70s certainly think we have to stand up for ourselves and certainly wanted to have the freedom to have control of our own bodies and our own sexuality. I would hope that this newer generation feels the same way. But I wonder sometimes if this generation really feels that strongly about standing up for themselves or if they want someone else to smooth the way. I really wonder about this. I never had the pleasure of raising a daughter so I can only stand outside that and observe young women.
Just want to add that we have seen in some of these cases discussed previously an accuser who will say that they were informed that what happened to them was rape, even if they did not consider it that way initially–Brown (my therapist told me I was raped), Occidental (my professor told me I was raped), and a few others I can’t recall off the top of my head (my friends told me I was raped).
These informers may have been right, or they may have been wrong, but they played an important part in getting the accuser to report. Some of these people may have had their own agenda in convincing the accuser she was raped.
We have seen this issue of perception discussed before in the butt grab scenario from threads past, where some people indicated they felt it was assault and would file a police report, and others said it was merely annoying and was not worth the time or trouble to pursue (and would soon be forgotten as no big deal).
I don’t think the people who found it merely annoying should be forced into admitting they were sexually assaulted if they honestly don’t feel that way. Just as one person has blackout drunk sex and feels violated and attacked the next morning and files a report (as this would most certainly be considered rape)—if her roommate has the same blackout experience and chalks it up to a bad night and does nothing and feels okay about that choice, that is her decision to make too (even though under the law, she was raped as well).
Personally, I like to define my experiences for myself.
Speaking of shows that star rapist, Amy Schumer has a great and cutting bit about Cosby. Our kids’ generation don’t really know him from Adam. He is not sacrosanct to them but they get to watch our generation go apeshit over the idea that Dr. Huxtable, Mr. Jello Pudding Pop Guy, could also be a rapist. I think this case is a wonderful lesson for the next generation in both the craziness of thinking that just because someone is nice to you or has a positive image in one area they can’t be less than perfect (or even awful) in another area and the reasons that women don’t report their experience. We have very credible women saying well I went to his house, I was flattered, he gave me a coffee . . . still, people in our generation say that they must be only saying something now to boost a flagging career or for some other personal gain.
People don’t have blackout drunk sex. Other people have sex with those who are blacked out drunk. There is a difference.
@harvestmoon1, I understand Cathy Young’s upbringing. She is a Russian Jew. My dad’s side are Russian Jews.
My grandparents are Russian Jews. If I told you my name you would understand. We didn’t change it. 
My dad loves America too but would never write the stuff Cathy Young writes.
Saintfan, great link. I think Amy Schumer might make a difference. She has done some funny skits on this topic.
But even if there is a difference Post #769, can’t one woman react one way and another the opposite? Does every woman who has had a man have sex with her while she is blackout drunk have to say I was raped (whether she presses charges or not), or is she allowed to say and feel otherwise?
Should she be forced to say she was raped because legally she was, even if she doesn’t feel so?
I am not asking to be annoying, I am genuinely curious.
Obviously the man who had sex with her in that state was wrong. Maybe he should be punished. But if the woman thinks it is no big deal, just a bad night, should she be forced to think of it as rape and thus that she is a crime victim and she should file a complaint?
I just wanted to note that BoxChecker2’s last post was probably sarcastic.
My first thought, without really answering one way or the other, is that perhaps by filing a complaint, she spares future women from victimization if this were a serial offender. While she may not feel victimized, she could file a complaint under the realization that others would indeed feel victimized by such a rape.
Just a thought, however, and I guess I’m not really answering the question of ‘should she be forced to think of it that way’.
I agree with the future victims part, and this is where the Callisto reporting system might be helpful—this woman doesn’t really want to file a complaint, but if this man is reported again, her report is activated and the college now knows they are dealing with a serial offender.
She might also find out by reporting that she is not the first.
How do you know they aren’t pursuing criminal prosecution because they don’t feel strongly? Among those sexually assaulted in the Genseo survey, some did say it was not a big deal, but most gave other reasons for not officially reporting the incident. Some of the more common ones were:
-It was my own fault
-I felt shame/fear/embarrassment/unsupported
-I don’t have proof/may not be believed
-It happened with someone I know
-I’d get the person into trouble
-Reporting is ineffective
Other surveys, suggest a large portion of victims have strong feelings, and it was not “victimless” for them, even if they did not report it. For example, the MIT survey found:
Of the respondents who indicated an unwanted sexual experience at MIT [includes things like unwanted kissing and unwanted sexual touching, not just “rape”], the most common impacts included loss of interest in intimacy or sex (36%), being unable to work or complete assignments (35%), being unable to eat (30%), and grades dropping (29%).
All the women I personally know that have mentioned or implied to me that they were raped (very small sample) did not pursue criminal prosecution, yet still seemed to be deeply affected by it.
I am 100% behind lowering the incidence of rapes and sexual assaults. Bring on the education for both men and women. Bring on the efforts to get more reporting. Bring on the better training for police. Bring on the prosecutors taking cases that they don’t think are slam dunks. Bring on (whatever other good ideas are floating around out there that I am forgetting).
Rape is a big problem and we need to do something about it.
But…I also want to say that I think there are more grey areas than some of you are admitting. The law does not differentiate between people. Here is what I mean by that. Let’s take a fictitious bar/saloon.
Jack and Jill have never met and showed up separately with friends and proceed to get wasted on body shots before starting to flirt with each other and then making out in a back booth.
Robert and Roberta have dated a few times and had sex, but afterward she told him that she was uncomfortable after waking up the last time and wants a more meaningful relationship that isn’t just based on lust. At the bar they join the beer pong tournament and get crushed.
John and Jane Doe are happily married and are out celebrating their anniversary. They get tipsy then decide to reenact their first date and do tequila shooters before realizing they can’t hold their liquor like they used to.
Bobby and Bobbi are separated and coincidentally end up at the same bar. Bobbi tells her friends to not let her get too drunk and do something stupid like reconcile with Bobby. They both end up drunk and talk about getting back together.
At closing time all 4 couples call Uber and head for the guys houses but are so drunk they puke all over the cars. Once there they all proceed to get intimate and have sex. All 4 women are wasted and can barely function.
Jane tells John that she is sorry they can’t pretend it is their honeymoon again like they planned, and will have to do it in the morning when they wake up. Robert remembers a few times when Jane said she wasn’t interested but got her 2nd wind after he kept attempting foreplay. He proceeds to have sex with her.
Bobby and Bobbi have the identical experience as Robert and Roberta.
Robert and Roberta begin to have foreplay and she says “I thought I said I really don’t want to do this”. She then moans and says how good what he is doing feels to her. He starts to have sex and she says “I really don’t want to do this” while doing body motions that indicate otherwise.
Jack and Jill have drunken sex.
The next morning all 4 women wake up and have very fuzzy memories but can tell from the used condoms that they had sex, and are mad. Even Jane realizes that John had sex with her after she said no and confronts him. He explains how he thought he could turn her on enough that she would want to do it based on part experience, and thought he had.
You are the prosecutor and have a symposium about rape. All 4 women turn out to be on the presentation committee and tell their stories in front of the audience and the prosecutor.
How many of the 4 men do you think committed rape? How many would you try to prosecute? How many do you think you would have any chance of getting a conviction?
Legally all of these couples had the exact same experience. Do you treat them all the same?
@TV4caster: Who committed rape depends on what jurisdiction you’re in. Different states have different laws and different definitions. As you’ll see, the women are actually quite distinct, legally. Let’s stick with Maine since I already looked them up:
Maine doesn’t have a rape statute anymore (repealed last year) but it does have a [Gross Sexual Assault](Title 17-A, §253: Gross sexual assault) statute. In pertinent part, 253 reads:
“A person is guilty of gross sexual assault if that person engages in a sexual act with another person and … the actor has substantially impaired the other person’s power to appraise or control the other person’s sexual acts by furnishing…intoxicants or other similar means; or the other person is unconscious or otherwise physically incapable of resisting and has not consented to the sexual act.”
John and Jane are the easy case. 253 says it’s sexual assault if “the other person is unconscious or otherwise physically incapable of resisting and has not consented to the sexual act.” In your scenario Jane is unconscious and previously told John they’d do it in the morning. The marital relationship may present enough implied consent to get John past the sexual contact statutes (the foreplay) but very likely not the sex because of the explicit statement.
Alcohol is the obvious move for the other 3. However, “It is a defense to a prosecution … that the other person voluntarily consumed or allowed administration of the substance with knowledge of its nature,” basically knocks out that element. So it’s a question of whether the women consented and were unconscious (like Jane).
According to your scenario, Bobbi and Roberta both actively participated. That means they weren’t unconscious which means no sexual assault conviction. They may have said no, but just saying “no” actually doesn’t matter under Maine law. Maine does not criminalize unconsented sex without more, and the more is missing in these cases.
Jill I can’t tell because there isn’t enough information.
Does it make a difference that a person (m ale or female) says that the act committed on their person by someone else wasn’t rape? I’d argue no.
But I’d further argue that focusing on whether someone perceives something as “rape” misses much of the point—and I’m now curious whether any of those who say they weren’t raped would or would not agree that they were sexually assaulted. In colloquial usage, “rape” has a very specific meaning that doesn’t necessarily line up with the actions we’re talking about here, after all.
“We” can classify the encounters anyway we want, but I can’t help but think about the fact that the criminal justice system is to protect society. Sometimes with these ‘crimes’ there is no need to protect society, it’s really as simple as what happened between these two people. States that have varying degrees of criminal sexual conduct have more options from as little as a misdemeanor where probation and therapy are an option all the way to forcible ‘rape’ with a hefty punishment should someone want to report and the police want to file charges. In my opinion none of the examples would stand up in court even if it meets the “criminal definition” of some degree of criminal sexual conduct. Most laws also differentiate age and mental capacity, the thought being that a child or a person with mental difficulties might not be able to make an informed decision. Adults who choose to alter their ability to make good decision through self-induced alcohol, I personally have a problem, in the absence of force or being totally passed out, parsing “bad decision making.” Their desire to get drunk and copulate bears no potential harm for me. The option is there for the aggrieved part of the couple to make a report and they have the legal right to do so…and that’s good enough for me.
The idea of the repeat rapist is an interesting one and the reason why I would advocate for reporting, simply because it creates a record, but clearly not every report will “need” the weight of the criminal justice system in the absence of a repeat, but I’m not in favor of punishing harshly a first-time offender in the absence of force. And many states have things like civil infractions, delayed adjudication and probation + the ability to review the decision or up the punishment should the offender repeat the behavior.
Using the criminal justice system to protect people from themselves I’m not in favor of unless the person, is “harming” themselves and poses a very real threat to others. Drinking is a good example, I’m not in favor of harsh punishment for being caught walking down the street with a BAL if underage, a civil infraction ticket can suffice, but I am in favor of harsh punishment of someone who gets behind the wheel and drives. If the underage BAL does it again, then there can be increasing punitive punishments.