<p>I've been thinking about this for a couple of days, and have been hesitant to throw out my experience, since it is so different than everyone elses. But here goes.</p>
<p>My daughter was academically accepted into every program she applied at (although she did not apply to NYU). This includes U of Mich, Point Park, and Okla City. I'm sure she would have been accepted into Otterbein. She also applied to CMU and CCM, neither of which requires academic acceptance before the audition, but I have no doubt she would have been accepted. She was awarded scholarship money from Point Park and OCU, and would have received it from Otterbein. She had NO AP classes, no math her Senior year (although she did have four credits of math when she graduated). She took a full load her Senior year, but it was classes she wanted to take and fit in with her (hopefully) future career -- Speech, Creative Writing, Physiology/Anatomy. She graduated with a 3.8 and an ACT score of 27. (Our school does not weight grades. It also only offers 3 AP classes so there was no way of her being able to earn any college credit.)</p>
<p>She was in the dance studio 15 hours a week, and spent 10 hours driving to and from the studio. I saw no reason to put any extra pressure/stress/whatever on her. She was already doing homework in the car by flashlight!</p>
<p>Right now, she is finishing up her freshman year at Millikin University in MT. She is in the Honor's Program and is on 50% scholarship.</p>
<p>If I were the original poster, I would NOT have my daughter take an AP History class with a teacher that did not like absences. I would make sure she was with teachers that understood her situation. While my soon-to-be Engineering Son needs to concentrate on math and science, we decided that my dancing daughter needed to concentrate on what was important to her career -- singing and dancing. To us, a chance to participate in an extra dance class or in a theater production was more important than AP classes.</p>
<p>Or as I tell people, she didn't need AP Calculus to be able to count "5-6-7-8".</p>
<p>This is just my opinion. And it is nothing against how other people decided to handle their kids. I just wanted to throw out a different perspective.</p>
<p>Peggy has made a good point and it demonstrates that every student is different and what is right for one may not be right for another. Only the parent and their student can make the decisions as to which direction to take.</p>
<p>Well Peggy, you took the words right out of my mouth. In all honesty, I thought to post along the same lines as you did, but frankly, I've just been too tired this week, But you've inspired me yet again.</p>
<p>My D went to a Quaker highschool known for it's strong pre-college academics and incredible college placement success. Yet, in large part due to Quaker philosophy, they try very hard to minimze what I'll call "competitive" scholarship. They do not rank the class, there are no "honors" classes, per se, no AP classes offered, they did away with academic awards at the end of the year and GPA's are not weighted by the school in any way. The guidance staff says that they send along an explanation sheet with every student's transcript and they believe their kids are not hurt by this policy when acceptances come in. History bears this out. My D had strong enough boards and Achievement Tests (2) (do they even give those anymore?) to be accepted academically anywhere she applied. However, she made the choice her junior year to declare herself as a Music Major - which simply meant that she spent enough time in Choir, Chorus and A Capella classes/rehearsals and took two years of Music Theory. This meant that she could forego Math in her senior year and stop after the equivalent of three years of a foreign language (enough so she tested/placed out of her language requirement at UMich). She otherwise took the hardest classes that were available to her, including an advanced biology class, but nothing like I've been reading so many kids, including many MT kids who post here, have done. I watched my D struggle to keep up with her arts training and interests outside of school (like Peggy's D, 15 hours and up in the dance studio every week along with voice lessons and play or choir/chorus/madrigal/a capella rehearsals) while at the same time working her butt off to manage her academic courses. When she had the opportunity to make choices that gave her some room to breath (not to mention sleep) we supported that. I'm with Peggy - I would have said no to the AP History course as much because of the potential teacher conflict as because of the academic overload. These kids are under so much stress as they try to find and then prepare to audition for MT college programs, any permissions you can give them to lighten up their lives a bit will pay enormous dividends for their physical and mental health. I understand and sympathize with the concerns about how their academic achievement will affect their Financial Aid offers; but as with any decision, the value of money versus quality of life needs always to be considered.</p>
<p>Sorry to be so longwinded......Peggy said it all much better but I wanted to weigh in with my support for her thoughts.</p>
<p>From my viewpoint, it's not just what's right for one student as opposed to another. I think that sounds like some students are "cut out" for AP courses and others aren't. In fact, different students have different lives which mean different choices must be made. From my D's experience (like Peggy's D), I can see that dancers have less time to devote to AP courses than do non-dancers or students who merely take a couple of dance classes. Also, it depends on the resources available for the student to fit in their training and experience in the performing arts. In our area, the best way for my D was by immersing herself in the p.a. offerings in the public high school (which are very demanding of time and energy) and supplementing with private lessons. This leaves limited time for AP courses which require extra hours of reading and study. Every one of her academic teachers I have discussed this situation with (p.a. versus academics) has advised me to let her focus on p.a. over the academics because that's where her love is. I suppose that's because she is a good student and has a very respectable GPA and produces beautiful homework. She is taking one AP course this year and will take 1 or 2 next year, but only because those are the courses she really wants to take. A side note to this is that I might have unwittingly influenced her in the decision not to take more AP courses because I don't believe in them (from a pedogogical perspective). No doubt the lack of APs will make a difference at a few schools, such as Michigan and NYU, but when we spoke with Otterbein's admissions office, for example, they already told us the bare minimum of scholarship she would receive for her GPA and ACT score--and it ain't bad!!</p>
<p>I decided to add another point: My D's school tries to "sell" the kids on the AP courses by telling them their AP grades are weighted an extra point (4.0 becomes a 5.0). Now that we've started called the colleges, we're finding that the majority of them do NOT look at the weighted grades. One example is Michigan where the GPA they use to determine if a student can audition or not is unweighted. Another example is OU which has a basic bottom line GPA for out of state students of 3.5 (for unconditional admission to the university). I thought I'd add this because some students might be relying on AP courses to increase their GPAs, and this will not be accepted at all colleges.</p>
<p>I agree that many colleges adjust the weighting of the GPA and do not count grade inflation. In fact, my son is looking at the grade inflation in hopes it helps him end up at the top of his HS graduating class (he is trying to be valedictorian - we'll see!!!). For colleges, he is hopeful that taking the hard classes and doing well will help at some of the schools that seem to weigh academics more heavily. Also, he is hopeful to have some credits from doing well on the AP exams to help with the several reasons discussed above (taking electives or graduating early or concentrating more on classes in the major or maybe going to study overseas). </p>
<p>I agree that you should make the decision based on your child and other schedules.</p>
<p>Ericsmom--
I think Thesbo wrote about the ability to get rid of those annoying GEs by AP means (and why it's important for a BFA student) on the latest Theatre thread. I'm sure my D would have liked the ability to do that if only it had been possible!</p>
<p>Best of luck to your S in his goal to be valedictorian!!</p>
<p>mtmommy and anyone else who might know - do you know what the minimun GPA is to pass academic review at U Michigan? And is it just the GPA that they weigh and then look at your overall application and transcript after your audition, or is it a full review of you transcript/application to pass academic review? Thanks!</p>
<p>Just thought I'd throw in a little something my d mentioned to me right before registering for her sophomore year Fall semester at NYU. She was bemoaning the fact that she had chosen not to take her AP tests her Senior year because it was affecting when she could register for classes. She felt it was definitely advantageous to those students who had the AP credits from the registration process, in particular at Tisch since some courses fill up quickly and with those extra AP courses she had friends who were able to get registered first. She had As in the AP classes that she took during high school and most likely would have achieved the 4 or 5 required. I told her to chalk it up as a live and learn experience. Just thought I would share it with those of you who might be able to "live and learn" from her experience.</p>
<p>in terms of SATs, michigan said they looked for 1100 on the old SAT and a B average.....but my dad told me when he spoke to michigan music school (when my brother was thinking of going there for liberal arts 2 years ago), that they did make it clear that if someone had a 1000, they wouldn't automatically not consider the person....maybe things have changed since they do the screening process first.....</p>
<p>they don't look at freshman grades at all, though, my college counselor told me! as freshman year was by far my worst year, i was very happy :-D</p>
<p>Here's a link to AP</a> credit policies at various schools. I started taking APs in 10th grade with the carrot held before my hungry face being that I could get them out of the way for college; so, the number-one biggest dealbreaker at the schools I researched was not accepting the credit ... even moreso than a cut system. I think my first rant on CC had to do with this. The number of GEs I could exempt even played a part in my ranking system! LOL Oh, my ... I can't resist ... I have a chart hanging on my desk hutch right now showing where I'll stand at Evansville GE-wise if I own Monday's and Wednesday's exams like I did yesterday's. The ones in bold are the ones I'll actually have to take. Motivation ... </p>
<p>Gen Ed Requirements</p>
<p>World Cultures 110 (3hrs)
World Cultures 102 (3hrs)
American Traditions (3 hrs) AP U.S. History
International Perspectives (3 hrs) AP European History
The Creative Dimension (3 hrs) AP Art History Philosophical/Spiritual Dimension (3hrs)
Mathematical Thought (3 hrs) AP Calculus BC
Science and Techonology (7 hrs) AP Chemistry and Biology (8 hrs)
Human Behavior and Society(3hrs) Community College Intro to Psychology Transfer
Foreign Language (6 hrs) AP Spanish Health and Wellness (1 hr) Senior Seminar (3 hrs)</p>
<p>Elective Credit
Writing 104 (3) AP English Language and Comp
World Lit 122 (3) AP English Literature and Comp
History 142 (3) AP U.S. History
History 112 (3) AP European History</p>
<p>Here's to taking only non-major courses that I want to take with the professors from whom I want to take them pass/fail after freshman year! Woot!!! Guess who's not leaving her room this weekend except to work out and eat. :D</p>
<p>You mentioned "annoying" GE credits. This is college we're talking about, isn't it? Yes, the MT students want to sing and dance all day, but we are talking about a college education. My husband has a degree in Computer Science from a well-respected university, but his program had very few GE's. As a result, he's successful as a systems analyst, but can't write, for example. While he's a braniac in terms of computers, he's definitely lacking in other liberal arts. </p>
<p>Someone mentioned several months ago that the BFA program could be likened to a trade school, meaning the program is arts heavy, and that's why so many kids choose this type of education. But, we all know how competitive this field is and without enough general education credits, these kids will end up with a worthless degree if they can't find a PA job.</p>
<p>Aspiringactress1--Remember this is just what they told me at Michigan, but here it is. A 3.0 or better in your academic courses in 10th and 11th grade and a 24 or better on the ACT (sorry, I didn't write down the SAT). If you meet those requirements, they will look at the entire package and decide if they want you to audition or not. So even if you meet those, it's still not a guarantee that you will be asked to audition.</p>
<p>Starmom, please be aware that many who have chosen BFA degree programs are also strong students academically who wish to be educated beyond the performing arts courses. There are many BFA degree programs such as NYU, UMich, Syracuse, PSU and Emerson, where there is a dose of academic subjects that augment their arts training. Choosing to do a BFA does not mean opting out of all academics in SOME programs (I realize there are a few out there where academics are minimal). Many who opted for a BFA want to be educated actors and even enjoy other subjects and learning. Because your child is not doing a BFA, please do not make assumptions to those who have taken this path. The BFA degree is not a worthless degree if one does not find work ON stage. I know speaking of my own kid that she has other talents, interests and skills and will have an education at her university even though she is getting a BFA degree. </p>
<p>Also, please be aware that some posters here work in the field of education and have taught on the college level, myself included (I know that others on here do as well but you may be unaware of that). </p>
<p>You do not need to justify why your own child is taking a BA or BM program. As theatermom has pointed out (might be on a different thread), that kids need to choose programs that fit their own wants and needs and interests and aspirations. What is appropriate for one kid might not be for the next. That is why we have choices. I don't think one option is BETTER than the next but more suited for each particular person. If your child chose a BA or BM, it is not better or worse than the options other kids picked for what they wanted. For those who opted for BFA degrees, it also is not better or worse than the BA or BM degrees....it is whatever floats your boat.</p>
<p>There are some kids who are just ready to take a hiatus from academics whether it is to go into one specialty or another; not just MT. And if your kid falls into that category, it may be wise to seek a program that is minimal in the academics. It seems to me, however, that many of the theatre, acting and even MT programs require completion of core academic requirements. But it really is the pick of the kid who is completing highschool as to what he wants to do next. In my opinion, for many kids, the maturing process is what is important during the college years; more so than what they actually study. Although my personal preference for my children has always been that they study a good well rounded liberal arts curriculum (I am a big fan of LACs), I have acquiesed to what their preferences have been. Surprisingly, in the end they have all ended up with substantial academic courses in college, though none went to a true LAC. But had my son who was looking at some schools that had few academic requirements in course selections decided to take a less academic route through college, that would have been ok too.</p>
<p>I don't know how important AP courses are for kids who are going for audition centered programs in terms of points on the accept tally sheet. The counselor at our school did not seem to think that it was as important as the gpa and the SAT can make a difference in the equation. I would imagine that for someone going into MT, it is not going to be as important that you have taken AP science or math as much as whether you have gotten good grades in the science and math you did take. My son only took three academic subjects his senior year, and the English was required. He will be taking AP exams on all three subjects but his school does not give any courses weight or AP designation. Although it is a nice bonus to have the flexibilty to choose different courses when you have the AP credit for the core classes, it may not be so wise to overload yourself in a year when a good audition is so important. A number of schools did not ask for mid year reports, if I remember correctly so senior grades are not as important as the sophomore and junior years'.</p>
<p>Sooz,
I think Starmoms D is 13 and hasnt started high school yet and is therefore in neither a BA nor a BFA program. I say shes in a great place to start thinking about APs. ;)</p>
<p>Starmom,
Ive talked to a lot of students in these high-intensity BFA programs and the biggest reason they give for burnout, dropouts, flunk outs and poor performance in the major is the annoying GEs especially the math and science components. Check out the schedules students in these programs undertake and do the math as compared to hours in a day. Also, as to a BFA degree being worthless for anything other than a performing arts job because graduates might not be able to write, think again. In a BFA curriculum, there is a LOT of writing. You have to write play analyses and character analyses all the time. This includes LONG papers. A BFA is just as good as any humanities degree for getting a regular non-specialized job or getting into grad schools. Also, as Doctorjohn so eloquently put it on another thread, Actors learn about literature and politics and psychology from the inside, from what it feels like to be living those scenes, and they learn it from some of the smartest people who ever lived, Euripides and Shakespeare and Chekhov and Brecht. If someone can make an argument for majoring in some other subject as a <better> way of learning how to live life, let them give it a try. </better></p>
<p>How did your husband get accepted to a well-respected university without being able to write? You arent supposed to be able to graduate high school without that. Personally, I think the basic math skills are most important since most of us will need to be able to make change when we inevitably end up spending some time waiting tables. ;)</p>
<p>I have five children. One is starting a BFA program in August and my youngest is a 13 yo who was just accepted into a PA high school. I also have three older children who are now grown and I'm about to become a grandmother. Neither one of the older three were ever interested in performing arts. All three of the oldest went to 4 year universities (and dental school) and have degrees in education, dentistry and business management. </p>
<p>With regard to my husband, I had to laugh when you asked about his writing. I guess I made it sound like he couldn't write. That's not what I meant. Of course, he could write, but chose to go to a more technical college, and doesn't have the kind of liberal arts COLLEGE education that I was referring to. He took liberal arts courses, but his degree was more technical based, and, therefore, he doesn't have the eloquence in his writing as say, a lawyer, for instance. </p>
<p>With regard to BFA's not being good students, please understand I never meant to come across that way. IMHO, part of a young person's talent comes in being intelligent as well as being able to sing and dance. Nobody is going to want to hire a actress who is unable to understand character development. A lot of that, for instance, is taught in basic literature courses. That's just one example. My own BFA daughter took many AP courses and, had she decided to NOT enter a BFA, would be entering college as a sophomore come August.</p>
<p>Ah, when you have a kid in the middle of his college years and a couple more behind him and tution bills coming out of your orifices, all you want is for that college student to graduate! You don't care if it is a BA, BFA, or a degree in basketweaving when you have one who looks like he is just drifting along. You just want him out of that school, working and if he wants to take a course or two in an area he overlooked in college, let him do so at a cheap local school. He has his base degree at this point in time which is a milestone. Some more pragmatic courses or deficiencies in his areas of study can be made up later. I took a number of business courses after I got a BA, as I was working in a business setting and never took so much as an accounting or management course in college. It was very helpful as were the computer courses I also took on a part time basis at a local college that offered this night classes at reasonable prices. My employer reimbursed me for a number of the courses, and it worked out well.</p>
<p>Those whose kids go to college and get out in 4 years with any degree are blessings to their parents. I know too families with their teeth clenched about getting their student out with any degree. I know my son really gave us the jitters; we did not believe he was done till we saw the diploma, and, yes, he did squeak by in terms of what he needed to get a degree, any college degree, and I would have taken any degree with pleasure.</p>
<p>Your post is wonderful! Our neighbor has a very gifted son in jazz music. This kid plays several instruments, the piano like a prodigy, and sings like an angel. He ended up going to a 4 year university in-town so he could live at home and save money. His parents were the kind who bragged and bragged on their son. According to them, there never was a child as talented as theirs, and never will be again!!!</p>
<p>With my children keeping my busy (and as mentioned above, I have a myriad of ages), I got out of touch with this neighbor's son. I found out the other day that he is STILL in college (6 years now) and hasn't "found himself" yet. His parents have become quite humbled. Instead of talking about how wonderful this kid is, they are now saying "if he graduates". </p>
<p>Jamimom makes a very interesting point. I'd like to add that there is something to be said for taking courses later in life when you may be in a better position to contribute to the class and get more out of it. I've often admired those kids who know enough about themselves to want to take a year (or two or three) off after highschool before starting college. It takes a lot of guts to buck the trend and a good deal of introspection to understand that college right after highschool may not be the best choice. There's a lot to be learned out there in the "real world" and taking the time to check out various things you may be interested in before committing to a course of study seems like a mature decision and may be very worthwhile for some. I did an undergraduate BA in theater at an Ivy League school and I loved it while I was there. However, it was nothing when compared to the substance and enjoyment I got from going back to grad school starting when I was 29 (while also working fulltime!). I sometimes think that if youth is something that is said to be wasted on the young, sometimes, so is education if the child is not in a place to take advantage of what is offered.</p>
<p>"so is education if the child is not in a place to take advantage of what is offered."</p>
<p>Absolutely!!! I worry about the kids who end up in college after high school because it's the "thing to do". Some kids just don't know what they want. It's the very lucky child (and parent of that child) who is dedicated early on and knows exacly where they want to be headed. Also, from a purely financial standpoint, what a waste of personal and federal and state funds to educate a person who isn't truly interested. But, that's a subject for another thread.</p>