The history of mathematics at Wesleyan is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum. In 1963, the department was one of the first to introduce a doctoral degree to its academic organization and its biggest criticism at the time wasn’t the predictable one that it diverted faculty resources to graduate students (an incredibly low faculty:student ratio blunted that argument), but that the faculty appointments - all specialists in the field of Topology - would deter all but the most “pointy” math oriented undergraduates from becoming majors. Indeed, for decades afterward the rap was that the Wesleyan math department was not strong enough in applied math which was code for statistics and by the 2000s - CS. My sense is that this has been ameliorated to the extent that a merger between the departments and a super-competitive market for CS teachers will allow. Still, there’s an unmistakable tilt toward pure math in the Wesleyan curriculum:
Courses Regularly Offered, Mathematics and Computer Science - Wesleyan University
It may not be the absolute number of required Core classes, but more the sequence requirements that is unattractive to a student trying to avoid GA requirements. You can’t just take a few into classes.
An LAC with a strong math department may offer about 16 semester-length math courses on the junior and senior level. You might add to this with cross-over courses from the physics department (notably, mathematical physics and general relativity). Courses from a computer science department can reinforce mathematical concepts.
Summer REUs offer great opportunities for undergraduates with an interest in pursuing graduate school in math.
The best abroad program for an advanced LAC math student, which aligns with the curricula of LACs by design, can be found in Budapest.
The best source for whether an LAC would be academically suitable for your son would be the math department chairperson at an LAC of interest.
[quote=BeekMom] do you agree with other posters that my son might run out of math classes to take, if he’s taken abstract algebra, complex analysis, and 2 other (TBD) upper level courses at Berkeley by the time he finishes HS?]
I’m not in a position to answer this question, though I would note that due to CoVid, 2020-21’s course offerings may be atypical. My suggestion would be to email the department chair with your questions. Mihai Stoiciu
Like many US colleges, Williams encourages a broad exposure across the spectrum of the liberal arts, hence the distribution requirements, or at some schools (not Williams) the core curriculum. This is truly a “different learning system” from what your son would experience at math, science and technology focused schools and, I believe, from the way most universities outside of the US are structured.
I think the overarching issue is really not the choice of a specific college or university but rather the type of education that will be right for your son’s maturity level, not just intellectual but also social. You know your kid better than anyone (probably better than he knows himself). You are right in advocating for the person you project he will be in a couple of years and balancing academic opportunities with support systems that will help him succeed.
Stanford. They find their type.
@Tigerle , These are such good points/questions-- that kind of junior and senior year would make all the difference. I think we’ll reach out to the Williams math department with our questions.
@1NJParent , do you mean you think it would be hard to get into desirable courses at Oxford because of prerequisites? Just wasn’t’ following what you meant…
@Mcastrellon , your points about LAC vs research university are truly helpful-- thank you. My son would love studying independently with a professor (which is part of the reason he’s drawn to Oxbridge), but your other points are equally valid. I think we’ll reach out to the Williams math department soon and see what their take is.
Yes, someone else mentioned Courant to us-- it sounds amazing. I do worry about my shy and awkward guy living in NYC, but he may surprise us…
Note that an advanced undergraduate can find research opportunities at a research university with a big math department. It is not limited to Oxbridge or Williams or whatever (or requiring study abroad at a different university). Graduate level courses can function as recruiting grounds for graduate level research projects.
@merc81 , Thank for this. I think we will reach out to any LAC my son becomes interested in, and ask the math dept about upper-level course availability. Thanks for suggesting it-- I’d forgotten that there are real people there who might be willing to talk to him!
I had heard of REU’s, but didn’t know about Budapest-- thank you.
The upper (400 level) courses at Willians are only offered occasionally and not every year according to the catalog: https://catalog.williams.edu/pdf/math.pdf
It’s an interesting question what courses you’d take on a junior year abroad at Oxford. Generally I think you’d follow the first or second year course, I doubt it would be the third year. You can of course attend any lectures you want to, the question is whether the college would arrange supervisions in specialist subjects that would require paying supervisors from other colleges. Second degree students (with an existing undergraduate degree, albeit not in the same subject) start with year two.
For reference the typical Cambridge maths undergrad does the equivalent of about nine or ten 24 lecture courses per year (1 hour lectures). You could do 4 pure maths courses the first year, 6 the second year and 7-9 in the third year.
“Actually I think [UChicago](is a great choice specifically because of the Core”
OP said her son did not want a high pressure, competitive environment, which would rule out Chicago, probably Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore and Columbia as well.
OP - if affordability is a factor, then UCLA would be the top choice, it’s a little more laid back than Berkeley and has a great math dept as others have said, tough to beat the weather and things to do. It’s a large of course, big sports culture, you should find out more about what your son wants outside of great math dept, if he likes the vibe at Berkley as a city, then places like Williams are going to pretty different.
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That is actually absolutely a reason to reach out to Williams, I think. I also would assume that the regular plan is to slot the US year abroad students into second year subjects, but I cannot imagine that doing subjects with the college’s third years would be such a problem. They wouldn’t need to pay a tutor from another college for that.
(edited to add that I came in from a different system, had 5 semesters of study under my belt because I was a spring admit back home, and not a mathematician, but I was slotted with third years/finalists in two subjects and with graduate students in another. No one batted an eyelid.)
Your son might want to plan out an actual sequence of courses he would want to take as a freshman and sophomore at college, bearing in mind distribution requirements as applicable, then make a list of classes he’d need to not wither in his junior and senior year, and then reach out to a few departments to find out how they might accommodate that - junior year abroad, tutorials, 5 colleges consortium, Quaker consortium, Claremont consortium.
And I’d make sure he’s got the prerequisites down to apply Oxford or Cambridge directly.
I looked at your first post, so just in case not that far in your research yet, he needs to make sure to take the AP biology and CS APs and get 5s, and somehow get an SAT test done with, I believe, 1370. That, with an outstanding MAT result (have him check out previous years papers, they are all online) and good interview, should net him an unconditional acceptance at Oxford.
Note that he is required to send in all exam results, so while they probably wouldn’t care about bad grades in English or other humanities, more 5s look better…
When my son was deciding what college to attend a few years ago, one of the most important criteria for us was what his course of study would look like over all four years at each of these colleges. While he didn’t apply to Oxbridge, there were a few colleges on his list with study-abroad programs with one of the Oxbridge. One of things that immediately became apparent was the difficulty of planning courses at another school under a study-abroad program. Courses with similar sounding names aren’t identical, or even fully interchangeable. They all have their own prerequisites, pace, breadth, and/or depth, etc. And there’ll be another set of problems when the student comes back to his/her home campus because of the lack of full integration between programs.
I wonder whether this matters so much, though, in a case where fulfilling any prerequisites for a major probably isn’t an issue after sophomore year.
I agree with you that regardless, it probably makes more sense to go to Oxford for the full degree.
I understand that in this case, it’s the parent who would really like to see her “sweet, awkward, shy” son at an LAC and is wondering whether there is even a chance to make it work, maybe to present a couple to her son as the “parent’s pick”, just in case. After all, the UK is far away from the West Coast, and it is another country and system that takes some getting used to for US kids, even if it appears to be a good fit otherwise. “Could make it work” rather than “perfect”.
I see a few references above to what I suppose is the Budapest Semesters in Mathematics program. That is a fantastic program originally started by St Olaf’s College, but now it is available from practically every university because it is so widely recognized, see here for the list of schools from which participants have come: HOME SCHOOLS – Budapest Semesters in Mathematics
It’s online only right now, but let’s hope that it gets back to live instruction soon. For someone at the OP’s son’s level, it would even make a great summer experience prior to entering college. My own DS21 had been considering doing the summer there after graduation, but COVID has gotten in the way. Might be possible for summer 2022, in fact I expect it will be.
OP never said they wanted a kid at a LAC, just something smaller than Berkeley, which can mean a lot of places. And if a kid has shown some comfort level with a suburban place like Berkeley, why would people recommend rural places like Williams or Cornell. If the student is coming in as a jr in math, he’s going to need a grad dept. So Wesleyan or a place like Brown - open, attention to undergrads, excellent grad program in Math would be better choices.
A plug for Caltech. They have 8 houses that students can live in all 4 years. During the first week, they rotate thru each house. Lunch and dinner are part of the meal plan. Lots of social events. Some houses have many single rooms. Because of the small size, easy to get involved in clubs.
The Budapest Semesters offer a rich program in Spring and Fall, but the summer program seem to be very limited, particularly for a student like OP’s son. I’ll also second the suggestion of Caltech. Even though it doesn’t offer every math sub-discipline of some of the top math programs that have been mentioned, it has sufficient breadth and depth for almost any math student, unlike other smaller colleges. Its culture, location, etc. may be a good fit.