I have encouraged him to consider them in past summers, but up until now he was too reluctant to leave home for 6 weeks and live among strangers (see “shy”, above.), Of course, going off to college is exactly that, for much longer, so this summer I’m really encouraging him to apply— both for the math experience, and for the bridge of living away from home…
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I didn’t realize that UM out-of-state is harder than UCB and UCLA in-state. Around here, I keep hearing that it’s almost as hard to get into UM as into the Ivy Leagues. Maybe that’s all true, and I’m just underestimating how hard it is to get into UCB/UCLA!
Wow— irony, indeed! I didn’t realize how many core classes Harvey Mudd requires.
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For fall 2019 frosh, the admission rates to UCB and UCLA for applicants with >= 4.20 weighted-capped HS GPA were:
38% UCB
35% UCLA
This page does not list by division or major (which may be differently selective), but L&S (where math majors are) is the largest division at both campuses.
Recalculate HS GPA for UC purposes here: GPA Calculator for the University of California – RogerHub
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@momrath , Wow— Williams sounds amazing. It’s definitely on our list. But do you agree with other posters that my son might run out of math classes to take, if he’s taken abstract algebra, complex analysis, and 2 other (TBD) upper level courses at Berkeley by the time he finishes HS? Or do you think Williams does enough of a theoretical approach that taking these classes again at Williams is actually a different learning experience? That’s my only hesitation about Williams… I tried to read through their math course catalog, and there were many interesting-sounding classes, but it wasn’t clear how often they were offered.
You may want to
- Have him read through the math course catalogs of colleges of interest, since he may better understand what would be new to him and whether he is likely to run out of courses.
- Look for the online class schedules for the colleges of interest to see how many courses are offered each semester and how often each course is offered.
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@mango9 , This is very helpful— thank you. Can I ask which university your son attends? Knowing a “math kid” is there and happy would be great info for us to have…
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@ucbalumnus thank you! I didn’t know about these resources. He maxed out the weighted GPA and so would be captured in the stats you name… roughly 35% is a good ballpark figure for us to think about.
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Remember, most HS GPAs on UC web sites are weighted-capped unless otherwise specified as unweighted or weighted (without specifying -capped), so be careful to know which HS GPA is being listed for comparison.
Weighted-capped means that up to 8 semesters of honors (including AP and college course) +1 points are given; weighted (not capped) does not limit the number of honors +1 points.
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Actually I think UChicago is a great choice specifically because of the Core and because it is on a quarter system, which means a student can easily take 48 courses over 4 years, and possibly more. The core requires about a third of them, meaning 32+ classes available for pure math, more than just about anywhere else.
And while your son only wants to do math, the Core is wonderful for learning how to think about the world in general, beyond the chosen major.
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However, the 10-week quarter courses are 2/3 as large as 15-week semester courses, so 32 quarter courses would be like 21+2/3 semester courses. The quarter system does allow for a more varied selection of “bite sized” courses than the semester system; some students may prefer one or the other.
UCLA and other UCs other than UCB and UCM are also on the quarter system.
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Yes, thank you! I used the calculator you linked to, to get his weighted-capped GPA, then used the stats you gave for UCB and UCLA for weighted-capped.
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Having one child at UChicago and another at Harvard, I see zero evidence that UChicago students are learning less in 10 weeks than in the equivalent class at Harvard in 15 weeks, and some evidence they are learning more. But maybe that says more about Harvard than UChicago.
UChicago will challenge the most serious math students out there. And in particular the Honors Analysis sequence in sophomore year (207, 208, and 209) may rival Harvard’s Math 55 for being the toughest math course sequence in the country.
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For a student who has taken abstract algebra, number theory, etc., Harvey Mudd/Pomona, or Williams, or any LAC, wouldn’t have enough to offer the student for the next four years.
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I’ve always wondered whether that potential drawback of Williams can be offset by a program such as Williams at Exeter, spending junior year at Oxford where the sky is probably the limit as far as math classes are concerned, then schedule tutorials for senior year. If the Exeter program (or other junior year abroad programs at high ranking research universities in the world which could offer similar benefits) is extremely competitive, it’s not something to count on. Or would kids who have such extreme academic needs get priority?
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I don’t think a single year away is going to make much difference. Courses have prerequisites. It’d be very difficult to plan just right for more than one or two desirable courses, not to mention the most desirable courses.
Williams is a great school, but the math department offerings reflect the interdisciplinary interests of the students, and yes it would be possible to run out of classes for the student interested in pure mathematics.
You need to consider sequencing and class schedules as well, since practically all of the courses above linear algebra will have only one section. For instance, Williams offers two courses in combinatorics, and neither is offered this year. I am about 90% certain that it only offers a single semester course in algebra, while, say, Pomona and HM jointly offer at least three semester courses in sequence.
Williams would be fantastic if you are looking to work independently with faculty members; I know this for a fact from a current mathematics student there who is very talented. But for standard courses, you would do a lot better at a top university, and your son would find a stronger group of math students there.
We faced this very choice with our similarly advanced math student, and concluded that the absence of honors sequences would mean that he would be bored in MVC, LA and perhaps Algebra at Williams, and would therefore need to start at a level that would result in the real possibility of running out of interesting courses.
Have your son take a look at the honors intro sequences at Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, even Columbia and Michigan. LACs can be great places for sure, but for the advanced math student coming in with significant exposure to rigorous proof-based mathematics, it’s hard to conclude it’s a better choice than a university.
Edited to add that Williams does have some courses offered in algebra beyond the basic, including representation theory and Galois theory, but again not this academic year, according to the catalog here: https://catalog.williams.edu/pdf/math.pdf. Quickly eyeballing the catalog, it looks like fewer than 25% of the 400-level courses are actually being offered this year, and someone coming in past abstract algebra and perhaps basic analysis would be ready for the majority of those courses certainly as a sophomore.
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Yes, a lot of math kids will find that other fields support math in a multitude of ways. Some are very interesting and some are very well paid as well.
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BTW, this is such a great conversation. I have two math kids and while I don’t think either will go into pure math, I like knowing what is out there in terms of learning and various options.
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There is one more place to consider that is the Courant Institute at NYU. Courant is a math powerhouse and NYU, while still selective, is considerably less selective than many colleges listed so far.
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