<p>Hi all ccers, </p>
<p>I go to a state school (finance major) and my roommate is a premed. We just got our grades, and from what he got, a 3.0, he is already discouraged from even thinking about the MCATs. I tell him to work harder next semester and the next. Any thoughts on the situation, from experience, things he can do to improve? Thanks</p>
<p>82</p>
<p>Average GPA for kids eventually admitted to medical school is 3.6.</p>
<p>If he has the desire for it, you're giving the best advice possible. One semester of 3.0 won't ruin his chances.</p>
<p>Well, if he's a freshman, he shouldn't be thinking about the MCAT anyway, regardless of his GPA. Have him do the math. He currently has a 3.0 after one semester. He wants a 3.6 after 6 semesters. He needs to average approx. a 3.7 for the next 5 semesters. Doable? I think so.</p>
<p>Of course, the best predictor of future grades is probably current grades -- most 3.0's from first semester probably end up around there eventually, just from a statistical perspective. But certainly it's not the automatic end.</p>
<p>MIT did a detailed review of grades, and found that the lowest grades, on average, were for the first semester of freshman year. These are only revealed to medical schools that insist on seeing them, but MIT of course had the data. Second semester freshman grades, and therefore freshman grades overall, were systematically lower than grades for sophomore-senior year. So it is reasonable to expect grades to go up. I have not seen anything like this level of detail by year for any other college, but there are many anecdotes that intro course grades are lower than higher level course grades.</p>
<p>A 3.0 for med school? That is tough. Things look much better if he can get it up to at least a 3.2 or 3.3. Lots of people get in with grades at this level. HOWEVER, it would be quite unusual to get into a top med school with these grades. Getting in at all requires a strong strategy, applying to lots of schools and getting over the idea that the med school should be similar in rank to the undergrad institution. There are no bad med schools. Being choosy in a luxury MOST applicants cannot afford. Strong recommendations, good extracurriculars and or research, and, very important, do what you must to do well on the MCAT. Many students take time off between college and med school so they can focus on their course work while in college, then really focus on preparing for the MCAT before they take it.</p>
<p>So one sub par semester by no means ends his med school chances.</p>
<p>I wonder if they consider the same for transfer kids.</p>
<p>While I'm not a freshmen, it is my first year at a new college; and it took a bit to make the transition over. I must admit, it's a lot harder than I thought it would be, and I overestimated my ability, and underestimated my classmates ;) </p>
<p>Since I've hit a really high GPA my first year, I wonder if there will be any wiggle room for me as this is my first semester? Or do Med schools not really look at that too much?</p>
<p>Oh, btw, we're freshmen. The 3.0 is a first semester screw up.</p>
<p>The game's not over for your roommate, yet. He's got to get his grades up - there isn't really any more room for academic screw-ups.</p>
<p>i'm in the same boat as this kid's roommate. i had a pretty crappy first semester of college (academically. it was fantastic socially) but i'm definitely ready to turn it around next semester.
really glad to hear that there's still hope for me, though. it's ridiculous how hard college hit me after breezing through high school.
good luck to ur roomie, and anyone else who needs to step up their game now</p>
<p>If your GPA is from your first six semesters, what consideration (if any) is given to your remaining grades (summer after junior year, senior year)? Is it just a matter of making sure the applicant doesn't slack off after admission?</p>
<p>You should strive to do your best in your senior year classes. When you apply to med school, you will be placed on a number of pre-interview holds and post-interview waitlists. To be accepted over the other people on the lists, you need to send updates, including senior year grades. No med school is going to take away your acceptance b/c you got a 3.0 your senior year. But, a med school is unlikely to take you off a waitlist either if you got a 3.0 your senior year.</p>
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most 3.0's from first semester probably end up around there eventually, just from a statistical perspective.
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Sorry, I misspoke. I know first semester freshmen often end up with early blues. The point is just that first semester grades are the best predictors we have for future grades.</p>
<p>Sure, a very talented baseball rookie might start off the season in an 0-for-30 funk and rip off a 30-for-60 streak to bring himself to .333.</p>
<p>Most of the rookies who start off 0-for-30, of course, aren't going to bat .000. But mostly of them aren't going to bat .300, either.</p>
<p>I am pre-med at Vanderbilt and I have also gotten off to a rough start. I estimate that my first semester GPA will be between a 2.5 to 2.8. But some things to consider are that I took a very tough course load of 15 credits (macroeconomics, accelerated calculus II, biology sciences (more biochemistry based), and general chemistry), I worked seven hours per week, and I was involved in extracurricular activities for roughly four hours per week. Does this ruin my chances of getting into the very top medical schools, or even disqualify me?</p>
<p>Now MIT is in many ways a unique place, but the relative homogeneity in course selection (everyone must take a basket of math and science courses that get them close to fulfilling premed requirements, the only thing missing from the GIR is organic chemistry), means that it is a good proxy for the premed experience.</p>
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The GPA of freshmen is one-third of a grade point lower than upperclassmen.
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<p>The same difference holds true for the humanities and social sciences required courses, so this is not limited to the math and sciences introductory courses.</p>
<p>The average gpa rose with each year in college.</p>
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Freshmen received fewer A's than upperclassmen and many more C's.
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the fraction of hidden grades awarded to freshmen that were A's and B's dropped in the Spring, compared to the Fall, while the fraction of C's rose.
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<p>The report had an interesting interpretation of these data. It suggested that the problem was pass fail grading, which encouraged students to take courses for which they were not prepared, and to do the minimum work to pass, rather than trying to excel if there had been grades. </p>
<p>The data says that first year students had substantially lower grades than all other students. In the premed context 1/3 of a GPA is huge. That gets you from 3.0 with poor chances at med school to 3.3, where the odds are quite reasonable. (NB this report is from MIT, which uses a weird 5 point grading system, so 1.3 of a gpa at MIT is just over 1/4 in a conventional 4 point scale). The mean gpa for courses taken in senior year was 0.5 gpa points higher (MIT scale, 0.4 conventional scale) than for courses taken in first year.</p>
<p>To the extent these results hold true for other colleges, they imply that a premed with a 3.0 first semester should expect grades to rise later, but still needs to shift to a higher plateau to be comfortable about med school prospects. </p>
<p>Since most college do not have such extensive requirements for heavy math and science courses, or frankly, such incredibly talented students setting the pace in these classes, raising ones performance might be more practical elsewhere than at MIT.</p>
<p>So... if your had a bad first semester, look at study habits, course selection, extracurriculars, and work commitments. Formulating a realistic plan is probably better than a general determination to "work harder". </p>
<p>See the academic advisors. All colleges have services for students who are struggling. They would not ordinarily define a 3.0 as "struggling" but they will understand the implications for a premed.</p>
<p>Chill90,</p>
<p>Classic rookie mistake, but disappointing there was no advisor to warn you off. Do not take three tough premed courses your first semester. This is not high school. Pace yourself. Now meet with your advisor and the premed advisor to plan a much less challenging course load for next semester.</p>
<p>Make sure your really have the ALL prerequisites for any course your take. </p>
<p>Do not take two premed science courses with labs simultaneously if you can at all avoid it. </p>
<p>Pad out your selection with things you are good at that are also not too time consuming. </p>
<p>Make a real plan to get your work done and maintain some interest in extracurriculars. However, unlike high school, being in a million clubs is not favored in college or med school applications unless you don't care about your grades.</p>
<p>Lousy first semester does not disqualify anyone from med school. However, you do need to shift to a different level to remain competitive. </p>
<p>"Very top medical schools". The vast majority of students at these places have bionic GPA's and astronomical MCAT's. But see the next point.</p>
<p>Forget about "very top med schools". Where you went to medical school makes very little difference in your career. There are no bad med schools. All graduates are physicians. Search CC for discussions of this issue, but in brief, where you go to med school matters, somewhat, if you want to end up on the faculty at a heavily research oriented place like Harvard or Hopkins, or if you want to enter a specialty that has many more applicants than residency slots. Nationally, not that many med students want to join the faculties of the top 10 medical schools, so that advantage applies only to a small number of people. More want to enter the highly selective specialties, but doing well in your med school counts for much more than where you enroll.</p>
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Do not take two premed science courses with labs simultaneously if you can at all avoid it.
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<p>I was under the impression that most pre-meds ended up having to double up on one of the required science courses if they wanted to take the MCAT after their junior year. Your advice makes it seems like people should take the MCAT as seniors, which might not be right for everyone.</p>
<p>Depending on planning and how you spend your summer, you may need to do this once. However, it is risky, as the OP discovered. There is nothing wrong with using all 4 years to get in the premed courses, then taking the MCAT's after that. Many people do that. If you can handle the work and get good grades while doubling up on science courses, go for it. If you are struggling for med school-level grades, then stay away.</p>
<p>It is also a risky move for first semester freshman year. At that point you don't know how you will function in college work. </p>
<p>So, the safe approach is one lab course at a time. The aggressive approach is to take more, but recognize the risk.</p>
<p>afan, can u elaborate on only taking one lab course at a time? is this technically possible, especially for science majors?</p>
<p>For a science major, it depends on your college, and your major. At many colleges and for many majors, you probably could not limit to one lab per semester without filling some requirements over the summer. </p>
<p>Not all premeds are science majors. This is the conservative advice for people whose main goal is med school, as opposed to being science majors. Many students do take more than one lab course simultaneously, some do great, others-not. If you can handle it then no problem. Many people who would do fine as premeds and as doctors get overwhelmed by doubling up on lab courses and never make it through the premed curriculum.</p>
<p>Calling a "course" one year of each, you only need 2 chemistry, one bio, one physics course for most med schools. Even forgetting about summers, that is one at a time for four years. Then take MCATs late in senior year. Or get a research or service job for the first year out of college, take the MCATs early in that year, and hope to go to med school after one or two years out of school.</p>
<p>Look, I was a science nerd, and started my college career with organic chem and biochem freshman year. So I am not against taking lots of science IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. But many students think that they need to be science majors, or take huge amounts of science, to go to med school. Not true. If you major in science, any field, you will know much more about it than you need to practice medicine. Particularly if you do not live and breathe science, my advice is to scale it back, a lot, get through the courses you need, learn that material well, get good grades, and take the MCATs when ready.</p>