A shake-up in elite admissions: U-Chicago drops SAT/ACT testing requirement

I see his discussed often here. If the standardized tests are truly so easy, then students who score below the top — even with high marks such as 33+ should be vastly inferior to the "“top” who should easily store 36. Yet, I have read no studies, nor seen any anecdotal evidence that 33+ students can’t excel at college, even in rigorous STEM classes. I’m sure there is a number below which students really will struggle, but perhaps the ACT/SAT is really better at identifying intelligence then people here like to admit.

Those students in Korea who spend their lives cramming for those more rigorous tests — is there evidence that the significantly outperform once they get to college? More importantly, is there evidence that they make more contributions throughout their lives? More inventions, more creative solutions? More contributions to society?

The United States is the world leader in innovation and pharmaceutical innovations. People from around the world come to the us for cardiac and oncological health care. When there’s an outbreak CDC is Johnny and Jenny on the spot across the world.

No country has anywhere near the level of foreign aid workers and volunteers. Few if any donate as much money to Charity. In Sciences astronomy and physics and space exploration. Who’s better? Flight was perfected here. Submarines. The hubell space telescope. The i phone. The laptop and pc. Just to name a few things

Our kids are just fine. Our schools are spectacular. 1 to 250. The prestige factor I get. Everyone wants the best. But Our schools and out process works just fine. Perfect no. We don’t need to take anyone’s system over ours. Quite the contrary.

See this article on the trend not to calculate or release class rank:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/07/13/high-schools-are-doing-away-with-class-rank-what-does-that-mean-for-college-admissions/?utm_term=.e1e40a6bb3e4

I think that data on collegedata.com is old. It’s very possibly accurate, but only so as far as it goes: given that so many students don’t submit class rank, it’s of limited utility. I don’t think Chicago (or Columbia) release Common Data Set data, at least not in recent years. But the CDS for Brown, Northwestern, and Harvard indicate that only 25%, 23%, 36% of admitted students submit their class rank. (Harvard says it doesn’t consider class rank.) Because Chicago isn’t releasing CDS data [any more?], we can’t tell how many submitted class rank in the year for which the collegedata.com data was collected, but I can’t think of any reason why it would be higher than the 25% or so. I would imagine that students with high class ranks are more likely to report them.

At our school, both unweighted and weighted class rank are calculated from all 8 classes. 9th graders aren’t even allowed to take more than 5 academic classes, and even students competitive for HYPS etc. usually take only 5 academic classes at a time throughout high school. Strong students mostly use the other 3 classes for mandatory health and PE, arts classes (some of which are excellent and much better than many of the academic classes), newspaper, lit mag, internship etc. In theory, a student could still take 15 AP classes doing this; mine took 12. Getting a 90 or a 95 rather than 100 in PE or theater or one of the nonsense-electives-that-are-more-like-study-hall-that-you-might-get-placed-into-if-the-good-electives-are-full will drop your class rank just as much as getting 90 or 95 rather than 100 in an AP Calculus class would. If my DD hadn’t ended up with a class rank at least in the top 10%, I would have told her not to report class rank on the common app, and maybe submit a note in that place they give you to explain that only 5/8 of class rank is calculated from academic classes. I doubt colleges would have gone back and put it into their CDS stats from her transcript.

For a very small percentage of kids, their high schools are reasonably similar to the education at a school like Chicago. For most kids, their high school experiences will be very, very, very, very different from education at a university that insists that it “values constant questioning and challenge”. I am not arguing that effort and focus don’t matter. I’m saying that the set of kids who will apply a lot of effort and focus to 50 or 60 hours of what they know to be useless and mind-numbing “academic” work in their schools each week, so that they can graduate with a 4.0 or a 100%, rather than to something else (intellectual or otherwise), is not necessarily the same set of kids who will thrive at Chicago.

I am not - NOT - saying that a high percentage of the kids who would thrive at Chicago, or that Chicago admits, have low class ranks or a 3.0 GPA or a failing grade in an academic class in 9th grade or anything like that. Because, as has been said, you’d need something to make up for that kind of application weakness, and even perfect SAT scores probably wouldn’t be enough; you’d need interesting essays, that maybe explain the weakness, and probably something else as well.That kind of combination is probably rare. (The same way that admittees with mediocre SAT/ACT scores are rare.) Partly because intellectually gifted kids in bad schools (which is most schools, to varying degrees, unfortunately) often can make their way well enough. Their intellect may somewhat make up for their depression and allow them to minimize time on (if never eliminate) busywork and offset unfinished busywork homework with stellar scores on tests. Or they may be at school where there isn’t much homework and the busywork is at least limited to 35 hours or less a week. Or they may encounter a teacher somewhere along the line who understands their gifts and their despair, and encourages them to toe the line enough to get into the top 10% of the class so that they can finally get to an environment where they can flourish.

And it’s partly because, even if Chicago and others are still missing lots of kids who might really benefit from and contribute to their colleges (especially those who don’t have parents advocating for them and helping them advocate for themselves), the colleges can’t look into their hearts and minds and whole life history and do have to base their admissions decisions on something (now that Chicago is so popular and isn’t just allowing “self-selection” to work its magic). Which is sad, but not something Chicago can fix. Many of these kids may not even be graduating from high school.

No system is perfect. I don’t think Chicago is doing a bad job of selecting its classes right now, and we know it lets in some kids with very, very low test scores (relative to the typical kid at Chicago). As I said, I’m not against making that policy more well-known with a splashy “test-optional” announcement. It would be harmful, though, to change the emphasis to the perfect GPA or #1 class rank (though GPA and “rigor” may be important substitutes for the kids with low or absent test scores, to assure that the kid can probably do the work at college). That’s all I’m saying.

@gallentjill,

The seminal work on this topic was performed by Julian Stanley at Johns Hopkins, and then taken over by
researchers now at Vanderbilt. It was originally focused upon mathematics, and therefore called the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY). This is now a 45-year longitudinal study. There is a current offshoot at Hopkins as well which tests for both Math and English, which is called the Study of Exceptional Talent (SET).

I will focus on SMPY since it has a longer history. SMPY tested for math talent by giving an SAT test, back when it was considerably harder, to kids under 13. About 1 in 10,000 could score 700+ on the math section by this age, and they have tracked these kids since then.

The found two major things about the students that scored 700+:

  1. This one single test at an early age was highly predictive of future success. Over a third eventually received PhDs, and many are patentholders or college professors.
  2. Even among the students that scored 700+, there was a correlation between score and future success. In other words, on average those near 800 did better than those near 750, which in turn did better than those near 700.

So yes, just one test managed to be highly predictive more than 15 years later, despite not controlling for grades, income, or work ethic . Here are a couple of links describing this program.

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/06/02/study-confirms-link-between-early-test-scores-and-adult-achievement/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Study_of_Mathematically_Precocious_Youth

Not in China. Children living in the big cities have an advantage there, in that more spaces (a quota) in the best universities are set aside for them. There’s also a holistic set of spaces for athletes and “good” ECs.

https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/06/chinas-unfair-college-admissions-system/276995/

[quote] In the 1970s, 50% of freshmen at Tsinghua University, alma mater of China’s president, Xi Jinping, were from poorer, rural areas, according to Yang Dongping of Beijing Institute of Technology. In 2010 that figure was down to 17%.

Many of the best high schools, even in small towns, are full of the children of local officials. Some students are admitted to college because of who they are or whom they bribe.

[/quote]

https://www.economist.com/china/2014/01/04/not-educating-the-masses

…and the wealthy are fighting to keep their advantage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/world/asia/china-higher-education-for-the-poor-protests.html

@hebegebe

I’m not arguing that the tests are worthless in predicting future success. I am questioning the often repeated notion that they are not difficult enough to differentiate and that somehow, that is a failure that needs to be remedied. I contend that if that were true, only the the perfect scorers would be successful at the top levels. If the tests are so easy, they why do students who can’t get perfect scores still go on to get Phd’s, patents, successful careers, and make important contributions to society?

I am duly impressed by the kids who can achieve those remarkable scores as 12 year olds. I am, however, not willing to dismiss the potential of the kids who couldn’t achieve perfection as 16 year olds.

It may be quite true that the tests don’t differentiate at the very top, but I contend that they don’t need to.

16000 out of 1.7mm students who took sat last year scored. 1550 or above. If it is so easy and/or easily manipulated that doesn’t add up. It’s just not the case that it is so easy to prep up to a perfect score. It’s just not factual. At 1500 it’s still only 50k or so students out of the 1.7mm who took it.

@OHMomof2 : Wow! A lot of knowledgeable people here. I thought there is only one entrance exam in every Asian country. In case you are curious about what happens to the daughter of the person who did a development case in Korea, you can google or wiki “Chung Yoo Ra” and find

So She is officially a middle school graduate before being arrested in Denmark and extradited to S. Korea. :smiley:

Comparing with those folks who blatantly buy their way into Duke University (See [this](http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Polk_Rich_Applicants.htm)), she really should have come to the land of the rich, USA.

So I thought I posted this already, but I can’t find it, so in case I didn’t:

Chicago’s Class of 2021 profile:

lowest ACT score (Admitted Students): 20 (doesn’t state if this is composite score)
lowest SAT score (Admitted Students): 1020 (out of 1600)

https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/apply/class-2021-profile

Re:SMPY…is the one test at 13y/o truly predictive? Or were those same 13y/o who scored 700+ encouraged, coddled and given opportunities to succeed and advance where lower scoring classmates were not? Did parents and teachers unwittingly/subconsciously set an expectation of success and the 700+ kid was given a psychological boost in esteem that translated over multiple years to perceived success? The power of belief and the gift of opportunity are incredible things.

(Dang, if holding a patent is indicative of “success”, my non PhD husband is 4 times more successful than the average and it has definitely not trickled down to his paycheck!)

Correlation is not causation.

You would probably find the size of the parents’ bank account was also hugely “predictive” of life success – but that doesn’t mean that being rich should be a criterion for college admissions – although in practical terms, it pretty much has evolved that way. Even with generous financial aid initiatives, 57% of Chicago undergrads are full pay.

As a rule of thumb, a premed should choose a school which one can get the highest GPA so I guess at least those who do get admitted without a SAT/ACT score should understand that their chance of becoming a successful medical school applicant is extremely slim. 42 courses are too many by any standard. Quarter system is more stressful than semester system. Plus comments such as

Well, that is enough to scare us away.

You really have be touch to survive in such an environment. If you are so unprepared compared with your peers, that would add to the stress level. UChicago never said those ACT20/SAT1020 students have successfully graduated with a degree they have planned in their freshman year, this would be another UChicago secret.

A person’s SAT/ACT scores has very little correlation with their college grades. It was a pretty much a running joke between my daughter and her college friends that her grades were so much better than the kids with much higher test scores — and she figured out very quickly that she was a better student than most at her college, if not a better standardized test-taker. (And her grades confirmed that view.)

See: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/26/new-research-suggests-sat-under-or-overpredicts-first-year-grades-hundreds-thousands

The students with the lower test scores probably have those scores offset by very strong grades in high school, and high school grades have always been known to be more predictive of college success than test scores.

I may be wrong, but I doubt that any University of Chicago student will ever see a multiple choice exam in any of their classes. (And if they do, that definitely would lower my opinion of the school). They are going to be graded based on the quality of what they put into their work, and their success will depend a lot more on their discipline and study skills.

At our high school, unweighted and weighted GPA, number of AP exams passed, number of AP exams with a score of 5, are also very correlated with socioeconomic status of parents.

Because life is harder for lower SES students.

It’s like that saying about people who are born on third base and go through life thinking they’ve hit a triple.

“Re:SMPY…is the one test at 13y/o truly predictive? Or were those same 13y/o who scored 700+ encouraged, coddled and given opportunities to succeed and advance where lower scoring classmates were not? Did parents and teachers unwittingly/subconsciously set an expectation of success and the 700+ kid was given a psychological boost in esteem that translated over multiple years to perceived success? The power of belief and the gift of opportunity are incredible things.”

@labegg thing is, the differential among these high-scoring testers is what’s interesting - by the criteria of “success” set forth (attaining a PhD and tenure, inventing something that’s patentable, etc.) the higher the math score, the greater the “success”. While precocious math testers no doubt tend to get encouragement and access to resources that that lower-scorers do not, it beggars belief that the 800 kid ends up “more successful” than the 750 kid because he/she, on average, had access to even more resources or encouragement than did the latter.

I think the more interesting question is, what is it about the successful lower scoring kids that allows them to succeed? Is it that the test somehow didn’t accurately reflect their intelligence? Did they suffer from test anxiety? Do they simply think creatively in a way not captured by the test? Did they simply have trouble with the timed aspects? (This is my daughter’s issue on the math section.) Was it lack of preparation?

It is not surprising to me that high scoring kids end up achieving in academic pursuits. I’d love to know what kicks in for the lower scorers who similarly succeed.

@hebegebe
Very interesting article about the SMPY, they looked at a total of 259 kids, I don’t know whether the sample size is large enough to do SES stratification and still be able to draw meaningful conclusion- I am more inclined to think that SES determines the later success of these kids while the SAT scores are just another associate factor that resulted from SES? It is just so difficult to remove the impact money (=resources, opportunities) from the equation.

@gallentjill @calmom : I must say in your daughter’s special case, if
" it was a pretty much a running joke between my daughter and her college friends that her grades were so much better than the kids with much higher test scores"
is true, she should have retaken the SAT/ACT test and I believe you would notice that it is consistent. Those GRE/SAT/MCAT are special tests which need to be practiced. Yes, it is possible to “cram” to improve the scores significantly so high scores might not mean much. But the low scores are pretty consistent with low grades. I do believe some uninitiated people take the test without practicing. If they are so uninitiated, I highly doubt they can do well in school works. The study you quoted actually shows 80+% correlation. Statistically, that is very high. My child has only practiced SAT online. We never paid for any courses. Buy a book, practice for a few weeks. That is all it takes. It really has minimum relationships with SES. I believe those 20-% non-correlated cases are due to “cramming”.

“It is just so difficult to remove the impact money (=resources, opportunities) from the equation.”

Not difficult at all, if you do the study properly, as any psychometrician will tell you. Not that they are using the current SAT or ACT as an intelligence test. It’s no secret that the original SAT was used in that capacity at one time.