In addition to discussion of the UChicago TO policy, this article brings up how some other schools are eliminating test scores as a criteria for merit scholarships. I found it interesting. What do you think?
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2020/0106/Revolutionary-thinking-Colleges-let-students-opt-out-of-admissions-exams
A couple of things jumped out at me from this article:
‘In the first round of test-optional admissions, in the fall of 2019, UChicago’s applications jumped 20% overall. But they went up 60% for rural students and 24% for first-generation students.’
- That's a sizable jump and reflects the school's outreach to these under-represented segments. It'll be interesting to know how many applied early this year because TO might be boosting that number (last year's early pool had jumped 2,000 from the year prior). Also, it'll be interesting to know the percentage of Class of '24 accepted TO. Guessing those from rural communities and first gen. enroll, given the special funding available to those groups. They may even apply ED1.
‘Several weeks into her first quarter, Ms. Hernandez dropped her calculus class. She had tested into it, and plans to take it later, but she found that having the optional fourth class in her schedule left no time for extracurriculars. Now she’s enjoying the Model United Nations club and tutoring adults for the citizenship test.’
- TO admit's major wasn't mentioned, but Calculus is a pretty critical thing to drop. Model UN is more important than Core Math or fulfilling prereqs? Wondering if there was another explanation - typically people drop calc. if they are bombing it and can't drop down (if already in 131, for instance, there is nowhere to drop). 151 isn't offered in winter quarter but one section of 131 is. Fall quarter can be tough, but eventually she'll need to take that fourth class . . .
Next step: test optional calculus classes.
I thought the same thing about dropping Calc. Did she really drop it so she could spend time with Model UN. Won’t she have to take it at some point? Plus, the fourth class is only “optional” about half the time, esp if you don’t use AP credits for some requirements. My 2nd year D has only 3 classes for the first time ever this quarter, as she has an internship that requires her to travel downtown twice a week. She generally finds 4 classes manageable.
I have to admit I am still wary of TO, especially at an academically rigorous place like UChicago, although I understand some of the biases and drawbacks that are present. I’d be interested to see an analysis of the outcomes after several years of this practice. I believe I’d be against a Test Blind policy as I think these tests still have value despite their flaws.
Colleges might also have additional intel in some form of ‘high school profiles’ which probably include grade inflation/deflation, demographics, social economics of the students, etc. at any particular high school.
For example, colleges know that at Stuyvesant High School, the guidance counselor can only do so much re: letters of recommendations because there are only 4 counselors for the 900 or so seniors, and that the guidance counselors can only perform administrative tasks like verify the stats of the student, etc. and so the colleges would not expect a guidance counselor from Stuy to write a personalized recommendation letter for each student (generally speaking.) The colleges would also know the grading scale of the gpa at this school, the rigor of the high school, average sat scores, etc. so these ‘high school profiles’ probably assists the colleges in determining whether a student is a good candidate even without the sat/act scores.
^ No doubt for high schools like Stuy with an established history of admission, UChicago might not need a test score to figure out whether to admit the next group of students. But what about these rural community high schools w/o such a history?
@browniesundae It appears that UChicago agrees the tests have value and that they expect a good number to be submitting test scores going forward. They came right out in this article and said they wouldn’t be going test-blind. My D told me that most everyone she knew in her class took four courses in fall. I know there are obvious exceptions (fall sport, major internship) and of course people do drop. It happens. But mostly it’s because something isn’t going well. So could be wrong but I think the article reads a bit disingenuously here. However, if the TO-admit doesn’t need Calc. for the major then she should be ok to pick it up later.
@TheVulcan - fortunately that likely won’t happen LOL. They already have three tracks of Calc so that should work for pretty much everyone who places into the subject.
The article mentioned she’s eyeing political science or sociology as a major. Neither require calc. I’m going to assume she took the mandatory calc placement test, placed into 131, and found the required extra weekly classes with the TA to be too much for her on top of what might be a very challenging course for her as she transitions to a rigorous college schedule. She’ll still have to take 2 math courses for her core, but she might find non calc to be a better fit for her. Maybe she’ll wait until second year to take calc. Who knows??? Regardless, I hope she is successful and is able to fulfill her core requirements on time.
@JBStillFlying I didn’t want to fit in all this in the above paragraph, but I’m guessing colleges wouldn’t have much info, if any, on those high schools where students don’t traditionally apply, and the ‘profiles’ would probably only be pertinent to high schools that have been around a while. It would be interesting to find out how the colleges compile info on high schools in general, and what do they compile? Anyway, this is just me musing on what goes on in these admissions offices.
If going forward, universities are going test-optional, the colleges will probably still continue to track high school profiles, using other methods, perhaps outcomes after the students have enrolled, etc.? Anyway, I have no doubt the students admitted test-optional (to any school) are pretty darn brilliant and/or have great potential.
I am sometimes leery of the college board, but I think a common exam does have its uses. That being said, I don’t think all students should be required to take it, especially since American universities already take a ‘holistic’ approach to admissions.
I do think that test-optional is a good way to go, because in addition to the reasons many have cited, it will at least also alleviate some of the incredible pressure during the admissions process for the applicants.
Gee, I sure hope not all universities are going test optional. Caltech and MIT, for example, require SAT subject tests on top of regular SAT/ACT.
I am sure they don’t want their freshmen dropping out of calculus classes. In fact, they expect them to complete it in high school.
^^ very doubtful it’ll be ‘all’ universities, @TheVulcan.
^^ and if so, the college board, as a ‘non-profit,’ will no doubt seek to remedy that lol.
One might consider that the world’s other prestigious universities outside the US are not test optional
Her dropping Calc didn’t stand out to me at all reading this article. It’s exciting to see this young woman having this opportunity and by all accounts she seems ready to face the challenge. I think TO is really needed to diversify college campuses. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in years to come.
Not surprising that she struggled academically, as her high school preparation was likely weak. Unfortunate that she did not persevere in calculus.
My daughter has a friend who went to a very very tippy top high school in DC. He ended up dropping Chem first semester at their college (and there isn’t very much wiggle room on dropping courses, ie no extras built into the curriculum). Her college is not TO and the boy no doubt had stellar preparation for college. Sometimes freshman just bite off more than they can chew and have to correct course. I don’t think it needs to be deeper than that.
Students drop classes all the time for various reasons, regardless of assumed “weak preparation “. The student herself doesn’t see it as unfortunate, so not certain why a stranger would do so. All of the TO students represented here seem like they’ve embraced the college experience and will do fine.
It is unfortunate because it will limit her options in the future. Many majors need a calculus background. Maybe she understands that and is willing to forfeit it, or may be she could have sought tutoring and stayed in calculus. If she struggled in math, she either had weak preparation in high school or a lack of math ability, or a combination thereof.
I think this is a good article. I can tell you after living in rural america for my kids early schooling and rich suburbia (Central Bucks County, PA) for the last 7 years, that there are some really smart people in rural America who just don’t get the opportunities that you do in the rich suburbs of America. Where we were before, the only test prep options where an hour and a half away and there were two options. We also didn’t live in some of the most rural areas of the United States. In the Doylestown, PA area, there are 6 options for test prep. I didn’t bother looking at the towns within 15 minutes drive.
I think the fact that smart kids can attend rural public schools and still have options like the University of Chicago is great.
In an unrelated note:
I’ve been in engineering (well management for the last 15 years) for 30 years and haven’t used calculus since college. The major may require it, but real life really doesn’t anymore.
How to think critically and having a well rounded background is much more important than calculus.
The University of CA system is eyeing “test blind” so this is a bigger issue than just UChicago.
Most applicants will apply with scores to UChicago and a good number will apply with subject test scores. They seem to expect that based on their comments and it makes sense given the its status as an elite university with highly selective admissions.
Fan of testing here - even bigger fan of testing once or twice and then moving on. As for UChicago, it seems to have done some analysis on this issue and didn’t introduce the TO policy without a lot of careful thought. At the risk of repeating the content of previous threads: JJ Heckman (economist and Nobel-laureate at UChicago) has done excellent work on the subject of education, including predictors of college success. An academic economist I know told me last year that Heckman concluded that GPA stands out as the best predictor. I haven’t read Heckman’s work so I’ll take this professional - and parental since they were also in the midst of college admissions with their own kid - advice, though I’m guessing that if you add test scores to the mix the standard error around the candidate’s predicted ability will change, and that’s useful information.
This young woman sounded intellectually curious and notices small details (the ditty about the coffee stain with the chemical equation was great!). Didn’t recall reading that she’s interested in non-stem/non-econ/non-pub pol but if so the Calc. can wait but it’s still a good idea to take as soon as possible. Those not familiar with UChicago: that 4th course isn’t an ‘option’ for long so at some point you have to make hard decisions about how to spend your time. Again, people drop courses and go in knowing which is their droppable if it comes to that. It just doesn’t tend to be something fundamental like Calc. Chem - different story. I’ve heard LOTS of stories about kids struggling in Chem, dropping Chem, etc. Chem’s a bear (IMO).
@PepperJo my D placed into 131 and those mandatory required TA sessions don’t take up much extra time, especially when you consider that 150’s kids also attend problem sessions and office hours and so forth (at least the ones who want to do well). One is just homework help so if you had your P-set completed you could turn it in and leave. The other is a weekly quiz so you had to stay for at least most of the time there. The only difference is that 130’s “makes” you get the help and 150’s doesn’t though a good number still opt for it. Calculus in general at UChicago is time-consuming, especially now that they don’t allow you to pre-register “down” anymore. The days of the 150’s-placement kids blowing out the curve in 130’s is over. Thankfully!
“Test prep” doesn’t really work. It’s a canard.
https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/sat-prep-courses-do-they-work-bias.html
“Mathematics should be studied if only for that it puts the mind in order.” ~Mikhail Lomonosov (1711-1765)