A shake-up in elite admissions: U-Chicago drops SAT/ACT testing requirement

Applying to College
521

@calmom : Brown actually makes public a lot of information at [Admission Factbook](https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/institutional-research/factbook/undergraduate-admission-and-financial-aid). For ACT English section, 2008 25th percentile is 28 while 2017 25th percentile is 32. For ACT Math section, it went from 28 to 29. Remember this is individual section percentile. It is quite possible a person has 36 at English and 29 at math. I am sure if your daughter has kept her attitude today, her chance of being admitted to any elite school is extremely slim. Although every application gets a set of human eyes, unless your daughter has a huge spike (awards), her app would be read in less than a few minutes since computer has flagged it.

Believe or not, even with cramming, a student’s score can only be improved to an individual’s upper limit. Those “natural” good students can achieve full scores with just a few weeks of practice. But without practice, even those won’t get full scores. My understanding is that ACT is much easier than SAT and the new SAT is much easier than the old SAT. But the new MCAT is much difficult than the old one. The purpose of practicing is to achieve one’s potential upper limit. Anyone who keeps your daughter’s attitude would put herself/himself at a huge disadvantage. BTW, nobody crams for APs. AP exam is like a final exam for the course. AP 5 standard is so low that it does not mean the students have mastered the materials. For those pre-meds out there, you know exactly what I mean.

If someone does not bother to submit a score, a clear spike must be shown on other parts of the app within a few minutes. Believe or not, if you watch the Amherst video you will know that too many people have some kind of stories these days, unless your daughter’s story is particularly sad or impressive, most stories won’t work today.

522

Computers don’t flag at Brown or other Ivies. That’s the first misconception in the above rebuttal. And having read how calmom’s D prepared for her academic future, I have no doubt adcoms would be intrigued by her drives and savvy.

Not to mention, here we go again, cycling back to STEM. Not all bright kids will take the MCAT. Not all need to reach any “upper limit” to prove their smarts and value. The app and supp are pages of opportunity to express onesself, show one’s thinking, both in the app itself, those sections and questions, and in the years leading to it.

Of course some kids cram for AP tests.

The Amherst video is old. And it’s a slice view without the perspective. The school I know best doesn’t even have a bunch of people sitting around a table chatting. It’s more efficient (as I will bet Amherst’s is, today.)

It helps to expand one’s thinking. Not keep cycling back to the holy value of test scores.

523

My daughter never spent one minute of her life trying to think about how to get admitted to an “elite” school. She did what she wanted to do in high school, then developed a college list based on fit, not prestige. She was able to identify what she wanted from a college – and she was able to identify what she had to offer – and looked for a match. Not a match based on admission stats, but a match in the sense of colleges that were in the market to buy what she was selling. And it happened that her strength was something that some, but not all, elite colleges would have wanted at the time.

This is all fodder for another thread, but as far a Chicago is concerned – Chicago historically seemed to want quirky, intellectual students. They wanted the kind of students who would write something novel or intriguing in response to an essay prompt like: "Mind that does not stick.” Not fill-in-the-bubble types whose first question in a class would be, “will this be on the test?”

Colleges need a variety of different students to fill a range of different needs. Chicago is no exception-- but it may very well be that their current decision is motivated in part by a sense that they have lost something in the quality of their student body with the current stats-obsessed application pool. I don’t know whether or not that is the case - it’s just that I don’t think the SAT or ACT even comes close to measuring the qualities that Chicago is looking for.

524

“Because life is harder for lower SES students.” For sure that must be at least part of the reason. My point is that if you don’t want to sort students into different colleges based on SAT/ACT scores because they’re somewhat correlated with parental SES, then you’d have the same problem with GPA, and with class rank at socioeconomically integrated schools. If students don’t present well because of disadvantages, but if those disadvantages can be overcome at college (something that can’t be assumed, but could be true in some cases), then you wouldn’t want to throw out SAT/ACT scores (or GPA); what you’d want to do is to sort of handicap for that disadvantage for both scores and grades. To what extent colleges practicing holistic admissions do that for things like family wealth, family income, and education level of parents is not clear to me.

525

“I also think it is silly to use the same 700 cutoff for today’s SAT math or verbal as it is not remotely the same level of difficulty as pre-1995 (particularly for verbal).” The verbal cutoff for the earlier study (top 0.1%) was lower - I think it was 640. Another thing that’s changed about the current SET cutoff for verbal is that it combines EBRW - reading and so-called “writing” multiple choice SAT sections. The original study used a cutoff for reading only; the “writing” section hadn’t been invented yet.

526

The purpose of doing a little pratice on a specific format of test is the same as the purpose of practicing for an interview - familiarity and calmness help you put your best foot forward. (If you can get into your dream school without an SAT/ACT score or without any preparation for it, that’s fine; why waste your time? Same would be true for practicing an interview if you know for some reason the job’s in the bag.) Refusing to take a standardized test or to be prepared for it because you don’t think you’re learning anything from it, would be like saying, “I don’t want to do a job or college interview; my mom already knows I’m great, and I won’t learn anything from it”. If colleges had agents teaching at every school, then they could watch your performance there and give you final exams of their choosing (though probably not under secure conditions - remember the huge amount of cheating in high schools!), then they wouldn’t need a standardized test to see what people actually know. But they don’t, so they do.

If huge amounts of practice are needed to do prepare for a test (BEYOND actually learning the material - many kids really don’t know grammar or all of the math on the SAT/ACT (and the SAT is now much more like an achievement test than it used to be in the g-loaded days), then the test isn’t a good one.

I don’t think this is generally the case, though for the SAT and ACT. 3-4 practice tests to learn the format and adjust timing, including taking the tests and going over incorrect answers, would take 15-20 hours, at most. That’s not nothing, but it’s a lot less than the amount of time it takes to write essays for college (which are also not usually that useful outside the college application process), less time than it takes to perform “demonstrated” interest by going to meetings with admissions reps (we didn’t do too much of that, talk about a waste of time), and a drop in the bucket compared to the 50+ hours a week of school and homework for 144 weeks, so much of which is complete nonsense, especially for an intellectually advanced kid, but really for everyone. (In the old days, you could go to Chicago at age 16 and avoid some of that.)

The fact that the SAT/ACT are timed, and fairly harshly timed (especially the ACT) adds a big wrinkle. Because while time is finite for everyone, a student who works slowly can often make up for that in college by working more. This is what I see as the biggest limitation of these tests, and why the weight given to them should be limited. It is also true that they are multiple choice, albeit much, much better designed multiple choice tests than your student is likely to get in college (without even speaking of high school tests, my goodness). So somewhat limited there. Essays, for schools that accept them (and maybe care about them a lot, like Chicago) can help offset that limitation, although there’s the risk of coaching, a risk I don’t think is huge, but could play a role in some applications.

As far as Chicago, Chicago has changed some, maybe for the better, maybe not; I tend to think it’s both for the better and not, in different ways. But its students have long had very high SAT scores, whether by design or more likely mostly by coincidence. My DD would probably have gotten into most of the Ivy League universities, but she chose Chicago even though most people where we live assume it’s a community college, based on fit.

527

While I don’t disagree with this in theory, I have problems with the way its phrased. There are good reasons why many kids participate in the same ECs and take the same courses. Not everyone is cut out to be something “unique” with regards to ECs and classes. Those ECs and classes are common because they provide something valuable, not necessarily for admissions, but for life. Kids benefit from sports and clubs in ways that have nothing to do with their eventual applications.

My kids spent an inordinate amount of time participating in school theater— just like thousands of others. They did it because they loved doing it. I doubt that it will be a huge plus on their college applications, but that was never the point. My daughter started her schools D&D club. Again, I can’t imagine that is going to be the “spike” that gets her into college, but that was never the point.

I think its useful to remind kids that there are millions of others out there vying for the same spots and many will have similar experiences and accomplishments. I think its a disservice to state that “they don’t have much going for them other than their stats.” This is the kind of sentiment that makes kids feel terrible about themselves when they really shouldn’t. The emphasis should be on the fact that there are hundreds of great colleges out there to welcome all these kids — especially the high stat kids who have had normal, non-spiky childhoods.

528

With regard to prepping for the test, I think there is a point of diminishing returns.

My daughter needed extreme remedial work for the English section of the ACT because our school refuses to teach grammar. She needed to learn the rules from scratch. This brought her score up from a 26 on the pre-act to a 35 on the ACT. With that help and a small amount of review to become familiar with the format, she got a 34 composite. That preparation was clearly worthwhile.

She was thinking of taking it again to try to reach a 35 or 36. I believe with intense work over the summer she could probably pick up the points she needs. It would involve learning to be much quicker on the math section. However, I firmly believe there are far better ways for her to use her time over the summer. She has hit the point of diminishing returns. I will say that it helps that she really loves her safety schools.

529

“Kids benefit from sports and clubs in ways that have nothing to do with their eventual applications.” Hear, hear.

And from all kinds of activities, formally organized and not, more intellectual and less so.

My DD19 did exactly the extracurriculars she wanted to do, no more, no less, no different.

She took minimal time to prep for the SAT and took it once.

She took a fair amount of time on her essays, which was very not-fun.

She chose the most challenging academic classes available in her high school, so she could learn a little something and not be so bored, but she didn’t load up on the # of AP classes (5 per year, while valedictorian had 7 per year); she used the other spots for some good arts classes, which gave her many skills and confidence, and supported her extracurricular activities.

Unfortunately, she still had to waste a ton of time on busywork school work, work that was completely useless to her personally (other than getting her into college, and to some degree, to getting her into the more challenging and interesting academic classes at her high school). But not to the point where it overwhelmed her, kept her from sleeping or friendships or extracurriculars or goofing around; her workload actually got somewhat lighter when she got into the more intellectual classes (which were pretty much the AP classes at her school), so that was good.

She’s extremely happy at college, so it was worth it, I guess. I’m really, really glad she didn’t change her extracurriculars in any way. It would have hurt her life over all, and probably wouldn’t have helped a drip for college. If you care about something, it comes through. That doesn’t mean that it will guarantee you a spot in an extremely selective college, but there’s no way to guarantee that.

530

^ and ^^
That’s the natural view and it’s fine. But when we speak of most-competitive colleges, it’s not enough to say that’s the menu and I colored within the lines, using the same colors as everyone else. Ok, fine. Now find a college that isn’t immensely competitive.

This isn’t about their egos. There are tens of thousands of nice, normal kids applying. Nor is it about standing out in silly ways. It’s really who gets off their duff and is activated in the ways that show the thinking, the awareness of issues and opportunities, who has the drives and motivation. You might say, who leans in vs leaning back. Not just, ‘my high school offered this, I went for it, no more, no less.’

I know a few of us are blurring the lines among a few current threads. But all this isn’t “life,” per se. If one chooses to go after a most-competitive college, dont expect more than you’re willing to give. Your choice.
If it’s too much, walk away. There are plenty of great, more nurturing colleges.

531

Yes. Exactly. My concern is only with the way it is sometimes phrased here on CC. There are kids reading these threads and they need to know their chances, but they don’t need to feel that they have “nothing to offer.” These kids have plenty to offer, but they simply may not be right for the top schools they think they want.

Now, for those kids who really do need to land one of those top spots, its a different story. They can’t simply skate on doing what comes naturally and hope for the best. When you have a goal, you need to do what it takes to get there, some of it will come naturally and some of it will be tremendous work. That is true in every facet of life, not just college admissions. That is true with all goals, large and small. But that starts long before they are rising seniors posting “chance me” threads.

532

The ACT covers more advanced math and a lot of kids struggle to finish it in time so I wouldn’t say it’s easier at all. It has more questions than the SAT and a shorter time.

533

I had one kid who found the ACT much harder then SAT and one the exact opposite. It really depends on the individual strengths and test taking preferences.

534

Only 37000 students scored 1500 or better on last years sat. Out 1.7mm test takers. 1550 or above and it’s only 17000 students. The average act in USA was 22 last year. I don’t know if the current versions are indeed easier or not. But it’s not the cakewalk, “easy to get a perfect score with a little prep” story you commonly hear. It’s just not the case. Liars figure but figures don’t lie.

535

Of the Princeton class of 2021 applicants, 12,435 had a 4.0 grade point average, and 13,850 had scores of 1,400 or higher on the two sections of the SAT. It is the same group of people who apply to every top school. So if someone thinks she/he is unique enough to not need to submit a score to UChicago, I wish the person the best of luck.

These days college admissions are like Miss USA Pageant. You need someone from each state. Last year a North Dakota teen got accepted by all eight Ivy League schools and had the courage to play a few seconds of his instrument on national TV. If he happened to be from California, he might not even be able to get into one Ivy league. That is just how it works.

I have come the conclusion that a large number of those uncommon majors applicants are fake since watching the video of the two Connecticut students who get accepted to a list of Ivy League schools ([watch here](http://fox61.com/2017/04/20/two-connecticut-students-get-accepted-to-a-list-of-ivy-leagues/)) … one applied as French major and the other applied as social sciences/classics major and both of them said they are ** PREMED **. Without giving out detail, we know one person this year who got into a top school uses a “good” consultant (very expensive) and chose a non-science rare major, but that person is premed too. AOs take notice. You guys are easily fooled.

So you think you are unique? Maybe there are a lot of even more unique people out there. Even if you are not “unique” by some definition, if you do those mundane things well, you can still be accepted to a long list of top schools. We do believe that you need a varsity sport (captain is better) on your resume to increase your chances.

536

Premed does not preclude an unusual major. My daughter will be a premed philosophy major. That has nothing to do with trying to make her more attractive to any particular school. It is just where her interests lie.

537

You’re either prepared for a French or classics major, including academics, ECs, and the right LoRs wuth the right detail, or forget it.

C’mon. Its more than checking a box.

Of 13k who scored at least 1400, how many had the rest of the picture? Ime, far, far fewer.

But I can’t be the only one who sees this thread going in circles.

It’s not all about stats. It just isn’t. It’s good to process that, examine the what else…without taking is right back to unprepared kids, SAT/ACT, and perceptions about hooks.

538

@gallentjill : I believe there are a small number of students who are genuinely interested in philosophy and medicine. But the majority of them are just trying to get a higher GPA. It is well known that schools are trying to fill those empty classrooms of those rare majors. A lot of people are just gaming the system at admissions. We honestly said we are premed when we applied to every school.

539

Of course my daughter will state that she is premed where applications ask for it. Thats the way that schools know what kind of advising to provide their incoming students. I bet that nearly all kids who want premed provide that information if the school requests it. But that doesn’t change the fact that kids are not going to be admitted as a classics major without evidence of real interest and aptitude in classics. D has a best friend who is a huge classics buff and is only looking at schools where she can major in classics AND do premed.

What does it matter what these kids will do after college? I assume most people don’t expect them to open up philosophy and classics shops. They are all going to do something else. Maybe law school, MBA, who knows. The point is that it doesn’t matter what their after college plans are. The colleges know who is likely to enhance their programs and who is just randomly throwing at dart at the humanities board.

Personally, I’m glad that colleges are actively seeking to fill these majors. I would hate to see our greatest institutions of higher learning turn into tech and trade schools. People who study humanities add a lot to society.

540

The young Stanford neurosurgeon who sadly died right after his fellowship training from stage IV lung cancer had a master in philosophy from Oxford before he decided that the best path for his life would be medicine. (His posthumously published memoir of his short life “When Breath becomes air” is worth reading @nrtlax33). I think it is really a good thing that medical schools are seeking kids from a diverse background. I am not a classics/philosophy major, these are really hard ones to fake and be able to get high gpa at the same time.