Let’s not seek to learn from a media reporter or two. It may be input and not gospel. I learned that in middle school, lol.
And it’s apparent who’s flinging down the gauntlet here, responding to incite. The incessant insistence doesn’t make one more right than another.
And not when one’s primary and limited experience is with another college.
^ her advisor’s list*
The pre-1990’s test was a completely different vehicle. It was far more logic and reasoning based and hardly focused at all on mastery of specific subjects. Even the math test was mostly based on reasoning. I believe it had nothing more advanced than some basic geometry and a little algebra. It was designed to measure aptitude rather than achievement. I really miss that old test.
In any case, I’m not saying that any version of the test is poor at measuring potential in the humanities. Doing well may indicate potential, but doing poorly may not indicate lack of potential in the same way that it might for math. In any case, its just a guess based on gut feeling.
@“Cariño” : It is great to know. Congratulation. Actually even without merit aid, if I were in your situation, I would choose UChicago also since it has the best program your daughter is interested in. Your daughter’s stats is like my child’s. This kind of kids will thrive wherever they go. But I would not recommend everyone to go my kid’s school, I have encouraged one to go to Duke. In the end, the person was too scared and decided to commit to Wellesley. BTW. for those who are interested in Wellesley, Wellesley really found an internship for one of my friends’ child. The child was too busy working on its senior thesis. The school gave the names of a list of institutions and arranged for interviews. I was amazed. The child just finished first year of medical school at our state flagship.
@calmom "Chicago, just like every other elite private, wants and needs to build their class from a well-established core of students from elite, affluent backgrounds – because all the colleges need/want to have around half of their class be full pay. My guess is that on average, if you include the almost-full pay cohort --you would find that at least 60% of students are either full pay or are attending with discounts that are less than 20% of overall COA. (Because face it, one has to be very well off financially to manage to pay Chicago’s steep $78K COA with even a fairly significant discount). Average need-based grant at Chicago is around $48K - meaning that even among the 43% of students who get need-based aid, the average student is still contributing $30K annually.
The only “fraud” is the claim that all the elite colleges make of being “need-blind” of admissions. It is true that they don’t discriminate financially on an individual basis, but they build their admission policies around the need to attract and admit students who come from privilege and affluence. That includes strategies like ED; all sorts of stuff that goes into marketing and outreach; and in the factors considered for admission, of which high test scores, which are known to correlate closely to economic status, are an extremely significant part of the attract-the-wealth strategy."
This is a very strong assertion. Is this based on experience? Research? or “Calmom Theory?” Just curious.
Catching up from yesterday…
@nrtlax33, Are you trying to suggest that SAT scores are useful as a screen for the ability to do well in at a rigorous school without falling apart? Do a search for suicides at Bowdoin and Bates, both of which have been test-optional for over 30 years, and you’ll find one…from the 1890’s! MIT, with its sky high SAT scores had 14 undergraduate suicides from 1995-2015. If anything I would think kids who can do well in school without stressing over standardized testing might have better mental health outcomes, but my guess is there’s really no correlation. Stessful, competitive schools are stressful competitive schools. Some students thrive in that environment, others crumble under the pressure.
“@Lea111 The pre-1990’s test was a completely different vehicle. It was far more logic and reasoning based and hardly focused at all on mastery of specific subjects. Even the math test was mostly based on reasoning.”
Uh, right. That’s why I said the following in the same post you’re responding to:
It’s why I’ve also pointed out repeatedly that there’s data on the high correlation of pre-1990’s SAT and IQ tests.
(In fact, having both taken the pre-1990s SAT and watched as DD took both the [format just prior to current format] 2015 SAT and 2015 [current format] PSAT, I would say that it’s the math section that’s changed the most since the 1980s, in terms of requiring mastery of specific topics typically taught in high school.)
At this point, we don’t have that kind of data for the SAT being currently administered. It’s too new.
Apparently the College Board has shown colleges data on the current SAT sufficient for the vast majority of them to require it (or the ACT, which is similar) and apparently use it in admissions and placement data for the time being. That could change for specific schools as they accumulate their own data.
The College Board claimed that the changes to the SAT in 2016 would help find as yet undiscovered disadvantaged kids who could do well in college. To the extent that the new SAT does not correlate with IQ, but instead correlates more with the quality of a student’s instruction in typical high school math classes (up through algebra II and even a big of trig), that claim has always seemed to me to be wrong.
@Sue22 : All I am suggesting is that throwing a student from a non-stressful, non-competitive high school to a stressful, competitive college might cause mental problems. MIT is special, There is nowhere to hide at MIT. At most colleges, if a student does not do well in some courses, they migrate to other majors and keep repeating the process. I actually think if I were in the admissions office and if I want to make sure there are at least some people in the class who are not going to do premed/prelaw/cs/engineering/economy and even if they try, they won’t succeed, I would deliberately select a group of students who are unlikely to succeed in those fields. Actually it was hinted by UChicago that SAT/ACT is not a good indicator for some humanity majors. But SAT/ACT can be a good indicator of whether a student can succeed in those crowded majors. I have linked a video for two Connecticut girls who applied for humanity majors but during interview said they want to do premed. I have no objection for those humanity majors doing premed if they can pass those weeder classes with flying colors. Premed is no joke. My kid is working 250+ hours at a tippy-top hospital and taking a 150+ hours EMT course this summer. Do those humanity majors know what is involved in premed? BTW, if you failed any of those bi-weekly EMT exams, you got kicked out immediately.
@calmom - @lea111 is correct that they switch things around w/o notice! The merit page you provide is new information and far more detail. And then they changed their merit policy right in the middle of the 2016-17 application cycle when my daughter was applying, removing information that was there when the cycle began and expectations were made, then removing it by the following spring so that it didn’t apply to the Class of 2021. This is why there’s some confusion about UChicago’s merit policy. They provide full need and merit-based policy information for the incoming class by that spring; however, they’ve been very inconsistent on providing timely information so that students applying the prior fall understand what the merit policies will be when they matriculate.
“But again – it’s great that the college does that, but other colleges have similar programs – sometimes but not necessarily tied to merit aid or financial need. So not at all relevant to the topic of this thread.”
@Cariño was your DD offered Metcalf as part of her merit package? Pretty sure that’s how it was for our friend’s DC when he was accepted a couple years ago, although I never heard more details than that UChicago funded his research (he found the opportunity himself at another organization). I had been assuming that was Metcalf.
FWIW, my understanding is that Metcalf is not specifically limited to low SES in the same way that Odyssey or, now, Empower is. Boyer has kind of lumped them all together in his statements to the press and the overall goal is the same: use these funds so that students who want a UChicago education have access to one, regardless of background or circumstance. If that’s NOT correct would appreciate the clarification.
@nrtlax33 The merit scholarship was just the “cherry on top.” She fell in love with UChicago since her first visit during her sophomore year. But there are many amazing colleges. It is just about finding the right fit. Which one is your child attending?
I don’t think test scores reveal anything about a student’s mental health. The weather and hours of darkness, in some areas like Boston, and Ithaca NY, and Maine, do drive some students towards depression. Look at U of Penn’s suicide rate lately. Social media and the constant comparing of social status contributes to suicide rates and maybe the push for girls to be at the top in athletics and academics seems to increase the female suicide rate a tiny bit. (see story of female runners at Penn killing herself )
I do not think MIT’s or U of Chicago’s academic challenges are what cause students to kill themselves. Its almost
always about a preexisting mental illness, and love life, and/ or difficulties at home, and certainly a chemical imbalance, that was there in the first place, but got stronger with the stress of college, including especially the social stresses on today’s kids.
I do, as an interviewer for MIT, note if the student seems to indicate a mental health problem, in some cases. If a student asks fearful questions about public transportation, in Boston, to me thats an indicator of lack of fit for an urban campus like MIT. We are not allowed to ask any questions about religion, health or politics though as a rule. Only if students mentions it, which is not wise but I will report it, if self reported to me during an interview.
The worst outcome for me would be to learn that a student I recommended for MIT kills himself or herself. Only one MIT student from Colorado committed suicide so far, and I did not interview him. It gives me pause, and its tricky to screen for mental health. I am not a psychologist. Colleges feel very helpless about this issue, but after the accidental shooting of a mentally ill student at GaTech , by campus police, GaTech has a very strong emphasis on counseling services at least. MIT also has strengthened counseling options and support.
@JBStillFlying We received many emails with information regarding internships opportunities. I am sure that they were available for every student; I don’t have any information that indicates that those were related to my daughter’s merit package.
This is a paragraph taken from one of those emails:
“If your student is in the process of identifying their summer plans, this is the time to secure an internship! There are many Metcalf Internships posted to UChicago Handshake, which are paid, substantive internships for the summer. There are also an additional 2,000 internships available to students through UChicago Handshake all over the world and across all industries. The key is to apply soon, so students should be proactive in applying for internships that interest them. Career Advancement is here to help your student secure meaningful plans and assist with identifying internship opportunities, reviewing resumes and cover letters, preparing for interviews, and evaluating offers.”
I hope this is helpful
@JBStillFlying I just asked my daughter about Metcalf, and she texted me back. Honestly, she is very independent and handles everything by herself; I am a mere spectator (and payor 
). That is was she said:
“Metcalf is part of the career advising office. It is just funding for certain internships. Yes, it is available for anyone who gets a job from a place that is included in the Metcalf program.”
@Cariño - Thanks for the info. Your D’s information is consistent with what I thought generally. Metcalf is a wonderful selling point for UChicago.
I was also under the impression that our friend’s DC was offered internship funding as part of his merit package before he even enrolled but maybe I’m mistaken - heard all this second hand via my hubby and I’m not sure he was relating exact details or general impressions. I believe that this student secured a non-paid research internship in his choice of major and UChicago covered the funding. If Metcalf funding is only certain employers than this was likely some other perk like a summer grant.
Apologize to everyone for hi-jacking the thread!
@Coloradomama, I don’t think MIT causes suicidality but I do think it attracts a higher than average percentage of kids who are prone to depression and anxiety, a combination in general rife at elite colleges. Many of these kids have spent a lifetime working incredibly hard, sometimes to the detriment of balance in their lives. Luckily the ones for whom it becomes a problem are in the distinct minority.
It must be difficult for kids who have always been the best of the best in their town or region-the ones winning all the science fairs and getting the academic awards-to find that in the context of a place like MIT they’re only average, or worse, below average.
I knew a woman who became suicidal at Harvard. She was an excellent student, was premed, came from a family who expected her to always be on top, and was highly driven herself. She did eventually go to med school at Harvard and had a career as a researcher but her fall was hard and dramatic. A couple of to her mind mediocre grades and she lost it, to the point of hospitalization. Her then boyfriend was a mentally healthy MIT student who was my husband’s best friend.
In any case, to get back to the subject, I don’t think high standardized test scores are a proxy for mental stability or the ability to withstand challenges. I’m sure UC has not taken this latest step lightly, and whatever their motivation in going test-optional I’m sure they’ve done a great deal of research to make sure they won’t end up with an inferior admitted class.
Actually, I think that the opposite might be true – the students coming from non-stressful, non-competitive high schools might have stronger reserves in terms of mental health than the ones from the high-stress high schools.
To start with, long-term stress has a biological effect on body and mind, due to production of stress hormones – and anxiety about grades and college admissions are a primary source of stress for teenagers. See: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/stress-teens.aspx
Students at less competitive high schools may also benefit in other ways that help them cope with college. If their high schools encourage collaboration and cooperation rather than competition, they may develop interpersonal skills that serve them well in a demanding college environment. For example, they may be more prone to form and participate in study groups and work cooperatively with fellow students, rather than a go-it-alone approach all the way through.
Students from less competitive high schools might also have less of their egos or sense of self-worth caught up in their grades, perhaps coming from an environment where less importance was placed on GPA. They may have stronger reserves of self-confidence, simply because they come from an environment which reinforced rather than challenged their sense of competence and ability to succeed. They also may have developed life habits that are more balanced, with appropriate time for recreation, socializing, exercise, and sleep — which help them weather life stresses later on. They may simply be served by a more relaxed attitude overall and an ability to take their day-to-day college experience a little less seriously — after all, it’s not the end of the world to get a C in a class.
And they may simply arrive at college with more energy and enthusiasm, simply because they don’t feel burnt out and exhausted from their high school experience.
Of course, this is all a generalization, but I am responding to a comment that is also based on generalization – and as a parent, I very specifically avoided placing my kids in high stress elementary & high school environments. I wanted my kids to learn, but I wanted them to do so in developmentally appropriate settings, with plenty of opportunities to develop an array of life skills in addition to academics. I wanted my kids to enjoy life and have fun as teenagers, and to enjoy the social aspects of their high school years.
I’d add that not all kids coming from less academically challenging high schools are coming from stress-free environments. There may be all sorts of intense stressors both at school and at home for students from different walks of life, which go far beyond worrying about studying and grades. And the students who come out of those stressful environments may have a higher level of resiliency and a broader sense of perspective than more privileged kids coming from academically challenging high schools, but otherwise very sheltered life environments.
So no, I wouldn’t predict doom & gloom for students for the middle class and lower-middle class students that Chicago now says it wants to attract.
Suicides are not limited to colleges like MIT. Suicide is the 2nd most common cause of death among college students across the full United States, after car accidents. However, highly selective colleges may have higher suicide rates than average. Penn had a particularly bad stretch recently, with 14 suicides in a 4 year period from 2013 to 2017. I’ve never heard of suicide being correlated with low SAT score, mismatched SAT score, or test optional. Instead, I’d expect it to depend on a variety of other factors including pre-existing mental issues. One reason it may occur more often at highly selective colleges is issues related to not meeting perfectionist ideals.
Many students at HYPSM… are HS academic superstars – valedictorian with perfect grades, near perfect scores, amazing LORs and other parts of the application, etc. Many of this group have a perfectionist internal image that is often reinforced by parents and friends. It can be incredibly stressful to have your internal image broken down in college when you are no longer the best and no longer get all A’s. Many selective colleges have a term for looking perfect on the outside and struggling to keep up the image on the inside. It’s called “Penn Face” at Penn and the “Stanford Duck Syndrome” at Stanford.
When I was at Stanford, mental health counselors came were sent to our dorm following the first midterms because so many students were struggling with getting first B’s. It was my limited experience that the persons who were struggling from a mental health perspective were not the ones with weaker academic backgrounds or weaker grades for the most part. Instead it was more the really exceptional students who had unrealistic internal expectations of getting near perfect grades… the type that would spend a large number of hours studying and freak out any time they get an A-, rather the type that spends much of their time partying and gets a good number of C’s.
We have been speculating a great deal about how lower income students and students from less competitive schools might fare at elite schools. It seems to me that we should already have this information. Are there any statistics about the questbridge kids? How about the other kids at elite schools on the lower end of the standardized test spectrum?
@gallentjill, the challenge regarding “lower income” is that there can be major differences in outcomes among ethnic groups, immigrant groups, and so forth. But there are definitely academic papers out there that measure things like the impact of beneficial programs such as affirmative action on college outcomes. Not exactly what you are looking for, but they exist. One of the economists advising on the Harvard lawsuit has done work in this area, although not sure if his focus has been on income or ethnic demographics.
^ And as an addendum to the above, it’s important to note that while college dropout rates will vary by income and ethnic demographic, those who are accepted to the best schools and end up struggling tend not to do so, IIRC. Instead, they switch majors - say, from STEM or Econ. to non-STEM. This is one of the reasons why GPA’s will equilibrate over the course of the students’ time in college, as students find the level of or type of academic program that works for them.