There are no significant differences in either Cumulative GPA or graduation rates between submitters and non-submitters.
Students with strong HSGPAs generally perform well in college, despite modest or low testing. In contrast, students with weak HSGPAs earn lower college Cum GPAs and graduate at lower rates, even with markedly stronger testing. (In other words, High School GPAs are more predictive of college success than test scores).
From the summary report link – there are charts at page 7 & 8 that correlate college GPA with high school GPA or SAT score, and break out the non-submitters who have higher SATs from those who have below-average SATs for their schools. (About 82% of the students who did not submit for admission purposes later submitted scores prior to enrollment, so scores of most are known)
“Many of this group have a perfectionist internal image that is often reinforced by parents and friends. It can be incredibly stressful to have that image broken down in college when you are no longer the best and no longer get all A’s.”
This is absolutely true. But it is our job, as parents, to continue supporting them and giving them perspective. When they feel that they don’t have our admiration and support, that is the beginning of the end of the world for them. My daughter had never gotten a B in her 14 years of school. Ever. She got the first B+ at UChicago in her math class. Luckily, she was at home when she received the grade. She cried and cried until I convinced her that a B is just a B. I told her that she is the same amazing person that she has been, and a grade would never change that. Many of those kids feel the shame of disappointing their parents, that in many cases do a huge sacrifice to pay for college. Family support has to be unconditional and permanent. Also, finding the right college is extremely important. Top colleges require hard work and many hours of dedication, and kids need to find activities that compensate the heavy workload that those colleges imply. They need to have some balance, some joy, and the possibility to have a good time every now and then. For some, it will be to go hiking, to go to a theater, or to visit family often. Sometimes seeking the college with the highest prestige as the most important fact to consider implies a high toll to pay. Even Harvard could be the wrong place for some.
^^^This is why I think competition is a good training for kids. Nothing gives a better perspective than losing in a competition, and this could be academic competitions, chess tournaments, athletic meets, music competitions…nobody likes losing, but then you learn so much more from losing as well. You learn to face challenges and keep doing your best.
Also, I never tell my kids that they are amazing. I tell them they are about avaerage and that is a pretty darn good place to be in.
Don’t just look at the context (eg, what you’re calling the low competition high school). It’s the individual you want to look at. Eg, you can find evidence of “self advocacy” in how a kid presents (and the LoRs.) These kids, in addition to drives and a record of pursuing interests and goals, can know when they need support, when to seek it (starting with academic support.) And “drives” are not just who says they have what career goals.
Nor is it just competitions. Collaborative experiences teach a kid the value of the team effort and that sort of mutual respect. It’s a different sort of grounding.
Also, it’s not really about “low competition high schools.” You aren’t admitting the high school, rather the student. Many of these high schools that we all have in mind have a very large percentage of kids who don’t go off to 4 year colleges (or even 2 year. Even well known magnets can have a high proportion of non-college-bound.)
But again, you aren’t looking for those kids. Or the way they affect the stats/demographic labels. You want the cream. And they exist.
So the better phrase is “under-resourced.” That’s what describes a hs that can’t afford all the programs and whistles/bells. It doesn’t mean there aren’t top kids with the spark. Or that there aren’t quality teachers taking interest in them. Or mentors. Or AP classes, etc.
Nor does it mean they don’t get the experiences. They just don’t have as much handed to them. Eg, they may need to fund raise to afford certain things. In many ways, these kids have been nicely tested.
My kids are sometimes amazing and sometimes average and sometimes…they have work to do to get to average. When they are amazing, I absolutely tell them so. They believe me because I also tell them when they miss the mark. They know the praise means something because it doesn’t come all the time. However, love, affection, and support are constant. I don’t tell them that every paper they write is a work of genius, but they know my love is not dependent on their writing brilliant papers.
My rising senior had some issues sophomore year. Basically, it was the first time that school presented any real challenge and she wasn’t prepared for it. She learned. During that time, she knew that I wasn’t thrilled with her study habits, but my love was never in doubt. We just worked to correct the issues. I am honestly thrilled that she picked up that lesson in high school and not first year of college. Whatever challenges college throws at her, at least she already knows what it feels like to be disappointed by a grade.
“Many of those kids feel the shame of disappointing their parents, that in many cases do a huge sacrifice to pay for college.”
um, my kids are WAY too “well adjusted” to have this problem LOL. We’ve always wished they did worry about disappointing their parents! My son is out to cream his sisters in GPA and college admissions. OK that’s probably not the best motivation but it’s kind of like what @makemesmart smart is saying - competition is good training for kids
Our D emerged from her first quarter feeling very confident after successfully managing four courses. Winter quarter saw even stronger performance - and spring was downright awesome. The key thing for her is to love her work. She was the type who performed just under expectations when younger as grades were only letters (in her mind). We just kept up the message that eventually that thinking would catch up with her. She was smart enough to get it together and sail through high school. She’s also pretty smart in general and that helps too. But she’s by no means the smartest kid at UChicago by a long shot and she chose the place precisely because she knows that if you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room. She wanted to be challenged and have room to grow.
@JBStillFlying, UChicago is definitely the right place to grow, learn, have a good dose of humility, and appreciate, in all its dimension, an A in Math 16200 (especially after a painful B+ in Math 16100).
I consider Econ to fall under the realm of “social sciences” – although an argument could be made that particularly at Chicago, it also fits under “mathematics.” But it’s math applied to broader social & socio-political & policy concerns.
“And I do think that there is a very valid educational concern for a college known for its leadership in the field of economics to want a student body that was drawn from a more representative and diverse economic spectrum.”
Um, studying “Economics” is not the same thing as advocating for “Economic Diversity”. The two have very little to do with one another.
Way, way back in this thread (post #86), I wrote that there were 8 possible first semester math classes that a freshman could take. This illustrates the depth of offerings that a school like UChicago provides.
My D is one of the kids that scored 800M, and 800 Math Level 2, and all A’s in math in high school (well, at least until 2nd semester senior slide). This places her roughly in the top 10K kids nationwide in terms of math skill, and despite that she found Honors Calculus I to be incredibly hard, to the point that she dropped back to normal Calc the following semester so she could actually have a social life. I estimate that only ~2000 kids nationwide, have the chops to get an A in the Honors sequence, so congrats to @"Cariño"s D for that. Far fewer would find it easy to get that A.
I wouldn’t assume the students best prepared for this class are ones with the highest math SAT score. Instead I’d expect qualified students who also have past experience with an advanced proof based math class or proof based math contests would be least likely to struggle. If all you’ve done during HS math is computational plug and chug, then the transition to proofs is likely to be challenging.
“The only “fraud” is the claim that all the elite colleges make of being “need-blind” of admissions. It is true that they don’t discriminate financially on an individual basis, but they build their admission policies around the need to attract and admit students who come from privilege and affluence. That includes strategies like ED; all sorts of stuff that goes into marketing and outreach; and in the factors considered for admission, of which high test scores, which are known to correlate closely to economic status, are an extremely significant part of the attract-the-wealth strategy.”
This is a very strong assertion. Is this based on experience? Research? or “Calmom Theory?” Just curious."
Fraud may be a strong word but need-blind is pretty much a myth. As others have also said, colleges want the class to have enough full pay students so they don’t need to dip into their endowment for the students who need FA. Colleges, even the elite ones, have budgets. While adcoms don’t know the financial info about an applicant, they do know if the applicant applied for FA, asked for a fee waiver, what city/neighborhood they’re from, parent info, that they get a pretty good idea of ability to pay.
“Admission to Harvard is need-blind, meaning your financial need will not impede your chances of admission.”
“As UChicago is a need-blind institution, we make admissions decisions independent of a family’s financial circumstances.”
First issue is: who truly qualifies or an admit. That’s the great funnel and is far more than wealth or the need for aid. The need-blind I know best doesn’t even show on the review docs who is applyng for aid. That info is absent.
Now, true, you can see who’s parents are in low income jobs or unemployed. But that’s not the screening an app goes through. There is no collusion with the FA folks before final decisions. It’s also true you can see who’s at a lush prep. But the trend there is more and more FA kids at those high schools.
The FA budget I know is substantially more than they expect to give out.
CC spends a lot of energy on delaring need blind a myth. Would that families spent more time trying to learn what their targets truly want to see that makes one a viable candidate, in the first place. Not crying foul so easily. This crying foul is a misdirection of energies and not evidence of the savvy it takes.
If your kid is truly qualified (and this is a large range of elements, much more than stats at his one hs or some ECs you think are hot,) you still have no guarantee and should accept that, from the get-go. Not look for blame, after the fact, on the institution side.
Even the very best candidates (after all the reviewing, culling,) can’t have better than a 50-50 shot: admit or not.
